# Steophan, throwing cigarette butts on the ground IS littering **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 23, 2010, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078 "2010-10-23T06:04:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/141 "2010-10-28T18:42:13Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I was thinking of the really _really_ fat. Oh yes, let’s please do keep pushing the definition of “fat” upwards. > [@](#): > > Huh. Hadn’t thought about it from that angle. Fair enough. You misattributed this quote. I’ve reported it for a mod to fix. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/142 "2010-10-28T19:55:51Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Oh yes, let’s please do keep pushing the definition of “fat” upwards. I mean that the merely chubby don’t need nor demand particular accommodations or exceptions made for them, besides big plates with lots of stuff on them :). Within the context of this here point of mine that I was trying to make, the slowly rising average BMI is not particularly relevant. ETA : or perhaps you meant I should have specified that in the first post rather than assuming people would grok that by “fat” I meant “special needs fat” ? > [@](#): > > You misattributed this quote. I’ve reported it for a mod to fix. I have no idea how that even happened 😕 Cut/paste error, maybe. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/143 "2010-10-28T20:19:59Z")
No big; it happens. I only mentioned it because I didn’t want fifty more people mashing the “report” button. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/144 "2010-10-28T20:22:26Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I don’t see why you make such a big deal about me shitting on your couch. Whether I do it in the living room or in the bathroom, it’ll still end up in the sewer later. > > The main concern, as I understand it, of smoking bans has not been \*non-smoking patrons \*but the \*employees \*of places that allow smoking. So, as smoking has been banned in other workplaces, they seek to extend the ban to businesses that continued to allow customers to smoke, such as restaurants and bars. Your analogy does not hold. You’re talking about defacing one specific person’s private property (also indoors). I’m not talking about throwing cigarette butts onto the carpet inside people’s homes, and everyone who keeps bringing this up as though it’s a relevant argument is continuing to strawman. I don’t really care if some people (or their pets) poo on the street instead of the toilet or throw butts on the street instead of an ashtray. Again, the net environmental difference is negligible. Why not address my actual argument instead of going for shock value with strawmen? You aren’t shocking me. Nor are your illogical bounds impressing me. ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/145 "2010-10-28T20:24:28Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > – > I also don’t see why people make such a big deal out of roadside butt disposal. Maybe this is a topic for a separate thread, but butt-litter simply is not something that concerns me. Whether you put it on the ground here or in a garbage can there, it’s still going to end up on the ground later. Net harm to the environment remains equivalent either way. Wait, what? Do you realize that dumps are engineered to have as little impact on the environment as possible - as in, no leaching of contaminates? Do you know what cumulative impact means? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/146 "2010-10-28T20:35:54Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > I don’t really care if some people (or their pets) poo on the street instead of the toilet or throw butts on the street instead of an ashtray. Well then you’re just fucking disgusting. There difference between throwing cigarette butts-or any trash–into the street or into a trashcan is that when it’s on the street, it’s a fucking mess. It’s unattractive and it’s potentially damaging (e.g., clogging drains), and it’s not going to break down on its own. Our society deals with waste by concentrating it in certain areas, called “landfills.” You may have heard of them. I should be encouraging all of your neighbors to dump their garbage in the street in front of your house, and then shit on it. Because apparently you’re cool with that, since it will somehow magically all make its way to a landfill or a sewer on its own. You fucking retard. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/147 "2010-10-28T20:52:29Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > I don’t really care if some people (or their pets) poo on the street instead of the toilet or throw butts on the street instead of an ashtray. Again, the net environmental difference is negligible. That doesn’t make any sense. First of all, litter ends up on personal property all the time. Second, litter on public property eventually causes problems like clogging storm drains or contaminating beaches. Third, human and animal waste is a health hazard. Fourth, it’s just unclean and nasty. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/148 "2010-10-28T20:56:09Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Well then you’re just fucking disgusting. > > There difference between throwing cigarette butts-or any trash–into the street or into a trashcan is that when it’s on the street, it’s a fucking mess. It’s unattractive and it’s potentially damaging (e.g., clogging drains), and it’s not going to break down on its own. Our society deals with waste by concentrating it in certain areas, called “landfills.” You may have heard of them. > > I should be encouraging all of your neighbors to dump their garbage in the street in front of your house, and then shit on it. Because apparently you’re cool with that, since it will somehow magically all make its way to a landfill or a sewer on its own. You fucking retard. I get that this is the pit. But I argue to standards of logic and won’t respond to ad-hominem fallacies or blatant shock-incitement. If you can’t make a logical argument, then I am fully justified in not taking you seriously. I hope you’ll also note that at no time have I outed myself as partaking in any of said abhorrent activities. I simply don’t think it’s as big of a deal as you and others do. I can’t understand moral outrage at seeing one lonely cigarette butt on the ground… people who care this deeply about relative irrelevancies are going to put themselves into an early grave from aneurysms. It boils down to this: my belief is that individual freedom is more important than your comfort or aesthetic preferences. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/149 "2010-10-28T20:57:55Z")
You realize that your position is no less emotional, right? It’s just coming from a position of indifference rather than anger. ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/150 "2010-10-28T20:58:46Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > I get that this is the pit. But I argue to standards of logic and won’t respond to ad-hominem fallacies or blatant shock-incitement. If you can’t make a logical argument, then I am fully justified in not taking you seriously. > > I hope you’ll also note that at no time have I outed myself as partaking in any of said abhorrent activities. I simply don’t think it’s as big of a deal as you and others do. I can’t understand moral outrage at seeing one lonely cigarette butt on the ground… people who care this deeply about relative irrelevancies are going to put themselves into an early grave from aneurysms. > > It boils down to this: my belief is that individual freedom is more important than your comfort or aesthetic preferences. This has to be a troll. I can’t believe this person actually condones tossing garbage on the ground and says it’s no big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/151 "2010-10-28T21:06:57Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > I get that this is the pit. But I argue to standards of logic and won’t respond to ad-hominem fallacies or blatant shock-incitement. If you can’t make a logical argument, then I am fully justified in not taking you seriously. I made a logical argument. And when you raised the objection that my hypothetical involved private property, I happily updated it to only involve public property. Despite, you know, the fact that trash doesn’t \*actually \*magically stop at your property line. > [@](#): > > I hope you’ll also note that at no time have I outed myself as partaking in any of said abhorrent activities. I simply don’t think it’s as big of a deal as you and others do. Right. Which is why you’re fucking disgusting, that you would have no problem with trash and shit all over the street in front of your house. Do you even put trash in cans in your home? Or does it just cover the floor in a layer, gradually bringing you closer to the ceiling? How many strata of pizza boxes are in your living room? After all, it just ends up in the ground anyway, you moronic twat. > [@](#): > > I can’t understand moral outrage at seeing one lonely cigarette butt on the ground… Who’s strawmanning now? If the sole problem with cigarette butt litter were one, single, lonely butt, you might have a point. > [@](#): > > It boils down to this: my belief is that individual freedom is more important than your comfort or aesthetic preferences. How about my individual freedom to punch you in the fucking teeth? Oh, wait, that’s illegal? Gee, I guess some things just are wrong, aren’t they. Like punching people in the teeth or throwing your garbage on the ground. Your freedoms stop when they intersect mine. If you want to throw trash on the floor inside your no-doubt filthy home, go nuts. But don’t fucking do it on other people’s property, and don’t do it on the property that we all share. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/152 "2010-10-28T21:09:34Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > But don’t fucking do it on other people’s property, and don’t do it on the property that we all share. This is the big thing. Public property isn’t “not mine,” it’s “all ours.” ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/153 "2010-10-28T21:34:33Z")
> [@EmAnJ](#): > > This has to be a troll. I can’t believe this person actually condones tossing garbage on the ground and says it’s no big deal. Your lack of belief doesn’t make it not so. Humans existed for millennia throwing their trash, poo, and pee on the ground. Modern sanitation is great, and I personally put my trash and poo where it belongs. But my belief is that freedom is more important than sanitation. There are many who agree with this viewpoint, apparently, though perhaps none in this thread. More than one person is responsible for the litter in the streets. SFG, your continual ad-hominems have lost any credibility you might otherwise have had with me. I’m sure you’re not concerned by this. Nor am I concerned with you. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/154 "2010-10-28T21:40:58Z")
You’re assuming biodegradability. That’s fine for waste. Not necessarily for cigarette butts. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/155 "2010-10-28T23:55:52Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > Your lack of belief doesn’t make it not so. Humans existed for millennia throwing their trash, poo, and pee on the ground. … and caught the plague, diphtheria, dysentery, typhus, leprosy, food poisoning… ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/156 "2010-10-29T00:14:32Z")
I’m just asking questions here, not making any accusations, but did anyone else notice the alliterative similarity between the names **Morella** and **rachelellogram**? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/157 "2010-10-29T00:18:31Z")
If she’s a troll, then she was trolling the World of Warcraft thread too. Leave it be. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/158 "2010-10-29T03:51:38Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > \ my belief is that individual freedom is more important than your comfort or aesthetic preferences. For clarification purposes; do you believe that _your_ individual freedom is more important than _other people’s_ comfort or aesthetic preferences? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/159 "2010-10-29T14:49:22Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > But my belief is that freedom is more important than sanitation. Either you’re a troll or \*even stupider _than our resident idiots._ \ ***Starving Artist** , **curlcoat** , **gonzomax** , et al. > [@](#): > > SFG, your continual ad-hominems have lost any credibility you might otherwise have had with me. You’re “new” :rolleyes: here, and apparently you’re also illiterate, so I’ll explain this to you. The point of the Pit is to insult people. Also, you should learn what big words mean before you try using them. It would be an ad hom if I said, “You’re disgusting, and therefore you’re wrong.” But my actual point is, “You’re wrong because of X, Y, and Z, and therefore you’re disgusting.” See the difference? Of course you don’t. You’re either a troll or a retard. > [@Bosstone](#): > > If she’s a troll, then she was trolling the World of Warcraft thread too. Any reasonably intelligent troll will also post in other places to make their trolling less obvious. I mean, that was my first thought, but how \*anyone \*who doesn’t have \*literal brain damage \*can say something like “freedom is more important than sanitation” with a straight face is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![MegaBee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@MegaBee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MegaBee)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078/160 "2010-10-29T15:20:06Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Any reasonably intelligent troll will also post in other places to make their trolling less obvious. I mean, that was my first thought, but how \*anyone \*who doesn’t have \*literal brain damage \*can say something like “freedom is more important than sanitation” with a straight face is beyond me. Not spoken to many Tea Partiers or Libertarians, eh? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-throwing-cigarette-butts-on-the-ground-is-littering/558078.md?page=9)