# Step right up-get $61M because you're a tired teenage dumbass **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 19, 2005, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775 "2005-11-19T05:23:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/1 "2005-11-19T05:23:48Z")
Sorry that the unlucky SOB checked out, but this isn’t Ford’s fault. Engineers can testify that if they had made it wider, longer, stronger, lighter, a paler shade of blue, or more crunchy in milk, Joe McPutz might not have died. HORSE. SHIT. The defect in the vehicle was the [sleepy nut behind the wheel](http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/afx/2005/11/18/afx2345113.html). ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/2 "2005-11-19T05:36:16Z")
The award was to the family of the passenger. I see nothing in your linked article that supports the notion that the passenger was either tired or a dumbass. I will grant that he was indeed a teenager. The article really doesn’t give enough detail for me to say that the jury was wrong. For all we know, it could have found that the driver was 99% responsible and Ford 1% and made the award on the basis of that tiny liability. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/3 "2005-11-19T05:42:54Z")
> [@from the article linked in the OP](#): > > The jurors were told that the driver had briefly nodded off and, as he woke up, lost control of the vehicle. I don’t know quite what to think about this. Were studies done on other vehicles and how likely they were to flip if a person dosed off for a second then woke up? > [@from the article linked in the OP](#): > > ‘If the vehicle didn’t have a defect in its handling, in its steering, they would have been able to steer the Explorer back in the road,’ said Kaster. It sounds like the design was flawed, and that if that family didn’t sue and win, another one would have. (Whose loved one hadn’t dozed off.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/4 "2005-11-19T06:06:05Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > It sounds like the design was flawed, and that if that family didn’t sue and win, another one would have. (Whose loved one hadn’t dozed off.) The family’s attonery _says_ the design is flawed, but aside from some irrelevant stuff in the article about Firestone tires, it looks like the Ford Explorer design could’ve used _improvement_, not repair. And until designs start incorporating technology that lets the car steer itself, nothing is going to prevent a sleeping driver from going off the road. Based on the facts presented in the artice, the judgement is preposterous. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/5 "2005-11-19T06:10:11Z")
Wait, wait, he FELL ASLEEP and it’s Ford’s fault he went off the road? It’s not worth $61 million, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/6 "2005-11-19T06:39:24Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > The award was to the family of the passenger. I see nothing in your linked article that supports the notion that the passenger was either tired or a dumbass. I will grant that he was indeed a teenager. > > The article really doesn’t give enough detail for me to say that the jury was wrong. For all we know, it could have found that the driver was 99% responsible and Ford 1% and made the award on the basis of that tiny liability. You are correct. My bad for flawed reading of the original article. Mods may close this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/7 "2005-11-19T06:55:52Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > I see nothing in your linked article that supports the notion that the passenger was either tired or a dumbass. Well he was clearly _tired_, enough to doze off at the wheel, or so the jury was told. “Dumbass” may be a bit harsh, though. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/8 "2005-11-19T07:10:07Z")
I wouldn’t call the kid a dumbass. I would call the members of the jury dumbasses. I know from personal experience that when you fall asleep at the whell, then jerk awake 'cause you realize that you are driving, the vehicle becomes a little hard to handle for a second. Especially if you are going at a high rate of speed. If the vehicle you are driving rolls _severa_ times, you were probably going pretty durn fast. This had nothing to do with Ford’s design, which may or may not suck. If the kid had been rested when he got behind the wheel, he wouldn’t have fallen asleep and the car wouldn’t have rolled. Driving while tired is just as dangerous as driving while drunk. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/9 "2005-11-19T07:14:26Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Well he was clearly _tired_, enough to doze off at the wheel, or so the jury was told. Again, this suit was brought by the family of the _passenger_. As in, the one _not behind the wheel_. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/10 "2005-11-19T07:32:50Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > I wouldn’t call the kid a dumbass. I would call the members of the jury dumbasses. > > I know from personal experience that when you fall asleep at the whell, then jerk awake 'cause you realize that you are driving, the vehicle becomes a little hard to handle for a second. Especially if you are going at a high rate of speed. > > If the vehicle you are driving rolls _severa_ times, you were probably going pretty durn fast. > > This had nothing to do with Ford’s design, which may or may not suck. If the kid had been rested when he got behind the wheel, he wouldn’t have fallen asleep and the car wouldn’t have rolled. **Driving while tired is just as dangerous as driving while drunk.** Bolding mine. Tired or drunk- if you attempt to drive you’re a dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/11 "2005-11-19T07:39:23Z")
I just fucking love this. Armchair jurors on the SDMB who spent 3 minutes reading an article think they know better than 12 jurors who probably spent weeks or months listening to all the evidence. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/12 "2005-11-19T07:51:22Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Again, this suit was brought by the family of the _passenger_. As in, the one _not behind the wheel_. Then they should be suing the estate of the driver, not the manufacturer of the vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/13 "2005-11-19T07:57:54Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I just fucking love this. Armchair jurors on the SDMB who spent 3 minutes reading an article think they know better than 12 jurors who probably spent weeks or months listening to all the evidence. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. There’s no indication in the article that a design flaw was actually the cause (despite irrelevant references to Firestone tires). While I’d like to see a transcript of the plaintiff’s attorney’s opening and closing arguments as well as a list of the various exhibits, I don’t where you’re getting this “ashamed” bullshit. We’re discussing the facts presented to us and I’m unconvinced they show Ford at fault, let alone to the tune of $61 million. Frankly, even if the executives of the Ford Motor Company had taken out a _hit_ on this kid, with extreme prejudice, a $61 million verdict is bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/14 "2005-11-19T12:07:54Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > There’s no indication in the article that a design flaw was actually the cause (despite irrelevant references to Firestone tires). While I’d like to see a transcript of the plaintiff’s attorney’s opening and closing arguments as well as a list of the various exhibits, I don’t where you’re getting this “ashamed” bullshit. It’s a 375 word article. Roughly a quarter of that is made up of post-trial statements, another quarter is about the Firestone recall (which is perfectly relevant, because the article is a news story, not a case for the plaintiff), and of the remaining half, most is taken up describing the verdict, the award, and the original accident. Maybe you feel that the one remaining paragraph describing the actual testimony sums up an entire trial sufficiently that you know better than a judge and jury, but I think that’s pretty unlikely (Elvis-alive-in-Blackpool unlikely). If you’re arguing that the article itself is not a cut-and-dried case, then you’re entirely right, but that’s not the point, is it? When condemning the decision of a jury, you should consider the facts presented to _them_, not you. And you’ve happily admitted that you don’t have all those facts, yet are quite content to rail against the verdict. Which seems odd. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/15 "2005-11-19T12:23:54Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > It’s a 375 word article. I’d be happy to read a lengthier, more detailed account. I just don’t feel like looking for one. > [@](#): > > When condemning the decision of a jury, you should consider the facts presented to _them_, not you. Feel free to round up a list. > [@](#): > > And you’ve happily admitted that you don’t have all those facts, yet are quite content to rail against the verdict. Which seems odd. It’s odder still to describe what I’m doing as “railing”. I did confuse the roles of the driver and passenger at one point, but “railing”? Please stop spraying your outrage all over my shirt. You’ll wrinkle it. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/16 "2005-11-19T13:23:43Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > I’d be happy to read a lengthier, more detailed account. I just don’t feel like looking for one. Me neither, but you’re the one describing the verdict as “preposterous” and “bizarre”. I guess I just assumed you might have more justification for those words than, well, bugger all. > [@](#): > > It’s odder still to describe what I’m doing as “railing”. I did confuse the roles of the driver and passenger at one point, but “railing”? Please stop spraying your outrage all over my shirt. You’ll wrinkle it. I can only assume you don’t know what “railing” means in this context, so here you go: “To express objections or criticisms in bitter, harsh, or abusive language. See Synonyms at scold.” Given that you know virtually nothing about the case, I’d say “preposterous” and “bizarre” were both pretty harsh. I’m not the one that’s outraged; that’s you. I’m merely perplexed at your confidence that you are right, and the jury wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/17 "2005-11-19T13:36:01Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > I’d be happy to read a lengthier, more detailed account. I just don’t feel like looking for one. [Here](http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/13197677.htm) you go. Here’s their case regarding the defects. > [@](#): > > ‘‘Their own engineers told them they needed to widen the track width and lower the center of gravity,’’ Gutierrez said. > > ‘‘It was designed to roll over, basically,’’ he added. > > -snip- > > Ford changed the design of the Explorer beginning with the 2002 model, which has a wider distance between the wheels, or track width. The company said it made the change for other reasons and has never acknowledged any design flaws. I’m still stuck on the kid dozing and hitting the strip. If the driver had not fallen asleep the accident would not have happened. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/18 "2005-11-19T16:10:43Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Then they should be suing the estate of the driver, not the manufacturer of the vehicle. DING DING DING! Absolutely, I also want to add to this discussion that the BS in the article referring to Firestone Tires being defective is a laugh. The tire were defective is dumbass drivers couldn’t be bothered to ensure the _proper_ inflation of the tires, traveling at a _proper_ speed, with a _proper_ amount of load sitting on top of them. In nearly all of those wrecks, the tires were over- or under- inflated, traveling at speeds in excess of their rating, and many exceeded load capacity. Another bullshit court decision. Sam ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/19 "2005-11-19T16:45:04Z")
What if he had been in a truck and it did not flip and crossed the median and hit oncoming traffic. Is it still Fords fault because the **driver** screwed up? SUVs (and trucks) are not top heavy deliberately. They have a higher center of gravity so they can do what they are made to do. If you don’t use them for what they are for; or don’t drive them like you should, to bad to sad. Newsflash [sub]dot ……dit dot dit dit dot dit……[/sub]New York, London[sub]dot…dit……dot dit dit dit [/sub]Tokyo, Moscow and all ships at sea.[sub]dit …dot…dit dot…dit[/sub]\*\* Taller things tip over easier than shorter things.\*\*[sub]dit….dot …dit[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![stretch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@stretch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stretch)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775/20 "2005-11-19T19:53:59Z")
Crap, I missed a big payout when mr.stretch fell asleep behind the wheel and totalled my Subaru! :rolleyes: Any car can roll over when you overcorrect. I think the problem here was an inexperienced driver, driving a vehicle that people think is sooo tough because it’s an SUV. I see more SUVs stuck in the snow, driven off the road, or otherwise wrecked than any other vehicle–and not just because the fucking things are everywhere or because we have a huge number of shitty drivers–it’s because most SUVs are so poorly engineered for anything. They’re not a car, they’re not a truck, they’re just big, poorly-designed pieces of shit. Oh, for the days when an SUV was an actual sport/utility vehicle and not an urban assault vehicle/yuppy station wagon. It appears that Ford will appeal the verdict…I wonder if we’ll hear about it if the verdict is overturned? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/step-right-up-get-61m-because-youre-a-tired-teenage-dumbass/331775.md?page=2)