Stephon Clark autopsy disputes police account (wounds indicate he was shot in the back)

I hate to say it, because I know cops have a shitty job, but we have to start charging these guys with murder. I don’t think there is any other way to get them to stop shooting people. This case is such a tragedy. I don’t care if the guy broke every window on every car on the block. Cops have to stop shooting people in these situations. The problem we have is that there are 18,000 independent Police Departments in this country, and no central authority over them, so this isn’t something that can be solved through management. Cops who shoot people needlessly need to be tried for murder. End of story.

A cop needs to know that he is going to fry if he uses his weapon like this. It has to stop.

Actually, the problem is the management. There is such a culture of apologism and acceptance in the unneccesary escalation and use of lethal force when other options are available, and no real corrective measures besides administrative punishments that are nothing more than an insignificant mark on a record that there is no impetus for officers to behave better or be more measured in their choices. Police departments have difficulty filling their ranks with qualified applicants, but hiring people with existing PTSD or other emotional control problems is exacerbating an already bad situation, and failing to discipline officers at early signs of misbehavor and purging bad influences is absolutely necessary for public trust of law enforcement. Being a peace officer is a position of great responsibility in which officers are entrusted to make responsible life-and-death decisions, and should be scruitinized accordingly.

There seemed to be this belief that putting bodycams on cops would end poor behavior but all it has really done is increased administrative effort, strained operating budgets, and created a cottage industry of camera footage analysis which doesn’t seem to have had much of an influence on police violence and needless escalation. Frankly, if we cannot trust that officers are capable of emotional stability and measured response to conflict, and that their chain of management will act to correct misbehavior promptly and effectively, no amount of surveillance or track os going to help. Police often have to deal with the ansolute dregs of society, and that can skew anyone’s view of the world, but they still need to be accountable to follow the laws they enforce and protect public safety, even for presumed perpetrators. If we have to start trying and convicting officers for unjustified homicide in anything more than very infrequent circumstances, that is an indication of very deep and serious problems within the culture of law enforcement and the oversight of it.

Stranger

And poorly trained.

“So he has a glowing object in his hand.” Where in the world did you find this evidence? You made assumptions based on assumptions. You would never make it as a homicide investigator. Which I was up until the time I retired.

Being shot in the back or top of the head or bottom of the foot or wherever doesn’t prove (or even imply) anything on its own. Shot in back = murder is a completely false equation.

“but if it was in fact in a light colored case …” Do you think all guns are black? Have you never seen a stainless steel or nickel plated gun? Hell, you can even get pink guns now.

All the internet experts, most which have zero training or experience, are reaching conclusions based on the evidence they see on TV or read on the net. How about letting the investigation play out? I know, the cops can’t be trusted to investigate themselves. That’s why normal procedure is to have an outside agency to the investigation. If you are of the belief that all cops cover for each other, who do you propose does the investigation?

“It would be highly desirable to avoid the application of lethal force except when there is absolutely no alternative that would protect officers and ensure public safety.”

Sure, it would be desirable. But who determines when there is absolutely no alternative? People looking at slow motion video from the comfort of their chair? If I am pursuing a criminal suspect through backyards in the dark, what alternatives do I have if he turns at me with an object in his hand and holds it out in my direction? Run away? Ask if that’s a gun? Be certain that its a gun by my own observations before I defend myself? Be certain that it a real gun? Be certain that its loaded? The decision must be made and acted upon in split seconds or less.

With all due respect to Stanger, his statement containing the phrase “if in fact” gives me pause. That’s a mighty big “if”. Huge, even. Suppose I said, “If, in fact, he turned toward the officers with the object in his hand and held out towards them…” If, if, if.

The U.S. Supreme Court in Graham v Connor held that “As in other Fourth Amendment contexts… the “reasonableness” inquiry in an excessive force case is an objective one: the question is whether the officers’ actions are ‘objectively reasonable’ in light of the facts and circumstances confronting them, without regard to their underlying intent or motivation.” The Court also cautioned, “The “reasonableness” of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight.”

Read the decision. Understand it. It is the law of the land and I don’t foresee it being overturned in my lifetime. Also, go to the website noted by Flyer. The ignorance about what goes on in deadly force encounters is nothing short of staggering. No subject that I’ve seen discussed on the Dope has more uninformed opinions.

Yes, there are bad shootings where the cops should go to jail (and sometimes, do) and cover ups have and will continue to happen. I have no sympathy at all for those cops. They are a disgrace to the profession. But I submit the vast majority of police shootings are legally and morally justified. Given the number of police - citizen contacts, use of force incidents and especially use of deadly force incidents the smaller subset of questionable deadly force encounters are, indeed, very infrequent.

Finally, I reject the idea that cops are paid to put the safety of criminal suspects before their own. They are not. They are paid to take reasonable risks and they do so every day.

The problem is multi-faceted. I was focused on what I think the solution is going to have to be. I don’t know how to change the mindset of 18,000 managers who are not going to be held liable for the actions of the guys who actually do the killing. The DA is the person who is going to decide if a prosecution is in order, and the Police Chief should not have veto power over that decision.

This is really the crux of the matter: the government has decided the lives of police officers are more valuable than the lives of the citizens they (ostensibly) protect, and that collateral damage (killing unarmed innocent civilians) is acceptable, even reasonable. That road leads nowhere good for the populace.

The Guardian: “By the numbers: US police kill more in days than other countries do in years”

The Washington Post: “Police chiefs are often forced to put officers fired for misconduct back on the streets”

I do not see any way in which a rational person can read either of those articles and conclude that there is not a massive, systemic problem in US law enforcement. But please, tell us more about how “…the vast majority of police shootings are legally and morally justified.” Or how American exceptionalism requires rates of police shootings, incarcerations, and school violence not seen in any other developed nation in peacetime on the face of the planet. You may use both the front and back of the paper.

Stranger

Also, “justified” does not mean “unavoidable”.

I don’t know what Grey Ghost meant, but here is what I get from it.

We are all at risk for police violence. This is a problem for everyone. Does it disproportionally affect young black men - yep. But that doesn’t mean my white female middle aged ass doesn’t have some risk (see Justine Diamond). (And my younger white female ass had risk of sexual assault by cops - a problem we don’t talk about much - or even know much about - but which happens)

As long as we frame this as only an issue for black men, its hard to make white people care. If we frame this as a “hey, your seventeen year old white hoodie wearing son could get shot by the cops” then suddenly the suburban moms that have been captured by the Parkland survivors get on your side.

One of the things the Parkland survivors have been REALLY good at is expanding the issue - this isn’t about school shootings of white kids…this is about gun violence. They recognize they are coming at this from a position of privilege, and are using that Its about the issues of BLM and gun crime and even accidents. BLM made a decision to make this about black men - and their support is weaker as a result. Now, they probably had good reasons for it - it remains a black centered movement, they have their own voice that has not been usurped by white people of privilege. Its allowed a conversation to happen about race that wouldn’t necessarily happen within a larger conversation about police brutality. But that’s had a cost.

If you pursue a suspect through backyards in the dark, be aware that this is a potentially dangerous thing to do and don’t put yourself in a vulnerable position where said suspect could get the drop on you

Now your playing the if game. I have heard no credible evidence that the suspect turned at the police holding his hand out in their direction.

why not?

I’m so sick of this argument. “If I hesitate I’m dead” In this particular instance that is not true, if the cop would have hesitated NO ONE WOULD BE DEAD!
Indeed in every single one of the “controversial encounters” that has the public and the “internet experts” outraged, if the cop would have hesitated no harm (deadly or otherwise) would have come to anyone. So we have many real world data points which suggest that hesitating and verifying if you are indeed in danger is the proper course of action.
I have not, in all these years heard of one case where a cop hesitated to verify if there was indeed a danger and ended up dead. it’s not a real thing!

take your own advise. You left off an important phrase in the decision: “whether the totality of the circumstances justifie[s] a particular sort of. . . seizure” Meaning we should take the totality of what the officer knew leading up to the decision to use lethal force, such as whether or not a weapon was reported, type of crime the person is suspected of, were any de-escalation procedures attempted. Does a kid suspected of breaking into cars require lethal force to apprehend?
You may not believe that Graham will be overturned, I’m not so sure. The lower courts are already hearing challenges, we may yet see it back in front of SCOTUS. I I can also feel a change in the wind about what your average juror is willing to accept as reasonable fear.

cite?

legally justified. . .maybe. morally justified. . .not even close.

How many unarmed dead people would it take to get your attention? For me. . .one is too may!

I only ask that the cops put the safety of their fellow citizens on par with their own.

mc

Every time we hear about the police adjusting the facts about an incident, it makes it harder and harder to trust them. Once we see deceit in a few reports, it makes us wonder about the validity of other incidents, where there are no witnesses but the guys in blue. The good officers should be upset about the misdeeds of the bad apples, but we have not seen a lot of evidence of that. Almost always, the blue wall cinches shut.

Well, everybody is a suspect, and a criminal suspect is not a criminal until after they have been convicted. The police should treat everybody decently, because that there might be an innocent person.

Looking about, I don’t actually see any real instances of cops being shot by suspects after they have their own guns drawn. While I am sure it happens occasionally, pretty much all the news reports I see of cops being shot by criminals happen when the cop is taken unawares. Either the killer walks up to the cop car and puts some bullets in it, or they pose as a police officer, pull them over, and shoot them, or they just shoot them completely unprovoked. Those are the stories I see when I look for how cops get shot.

The reason for many of these surprise attacks on police are because the person was angry at with that cop’s actions, or the actions of cops in general, in killing a friend or loved one.

So, if the number of cops killed because they didn’t shoot fast enough is less than the number of cops killed because people are getting “revenge” for the police’s actions, then I would argue that by refusing to hesitate and properly assess the situation, they are putting themselves and their colleagues in more danger, not less.

FBI stats from 2015 show 41 officers being killed by suspects. It also shows 45 that year dying accidentally while on duty, including 2 accidental shootings.

Here’s something to think about:

I think that every time someone is killed by a law enforcement officer, it should trigger an automatic federal civil trial by jury.

Discuss.

You want to rephrase that? “Civil trial” means something like a law suit.

Yes I do. A complaint of a civil rights violation filed in federal court on behalf of the deceased.

As opposed to a trial by media?

I think you mean “federal criminal trial”, or perhaps trial for civil rights violations. However, this discussion of putting police officers on trial, automatic or otherwise badly misses the point; the fundamental problem is police officers escalating conflcits (as appears to have occured in the Alton Sterling case) and resorting to the use of lethal force where a less than lethal alternative would be effective. Punishing an officer after the fact doesn’t undue the damage, and the perception of punitation for “doing the job” will make it even harder to recruit qualified candidates for law enforcement out of concern that an honest mistake could cost them their freedom or life.

The point was made upthread that once an officer pulls his or her service weapon and goes into fight mode, it is very difficult to make timely, rational decisions or even get a full picture of the scenario due to perceptual narrowing. You can make the case that this stress response might lead an officer to believe a suspect is an immediate threat even though an objective review of the situation shows no justification. But that doesn’t mean that we should give peace officers free writ to shoot suspects with impunity just because they might have perceived danger; it means we should encourage police to try to de-escalate conflicts and attempt to apply less lethal methods before a conflict gets out of hand, and it seems there is a contingent, even if just a minority, of officers using their authority to give action to frustration, anger, or prejudice, with apologists offering the excuse of, “Well, that just happens sometimes.”

We’re never going to have a perfect society with no violence because in human nature there will always be violent predators but that doesn’t mean that police should make the default assumption that the threat or action of violence is the primary route to deal with a suspected perpetrator. And I’ll repeat the fact that no other developed nation in the free world has the kind of institutional violence or police shootings that the United States has. It was the hope that body cameras would reduce poor behavior on the part of police, and indemnify them in the case of an unavoidable shooting, but the evidence is ambiguous at best that BWCs reduce poor behavior, and as has been seen cameras can be turned off or just not provide sufficient clarity to interpret the situation. And frankly, we don’t want fear of punishment to be the primary motivation for officers to not escalate a conflict or unnecessarily shoot a suspect; it should be the training and inclination of the police to attempt to de-escalate a conflict or apply the minimum level of necessary force, resorting to shooting only if a suspect presents a clear danger to the officer or other bystanders.

Stranger

I agree with Stranger. The goal of all this collective outrage should not be to put some draconian procedure in place to address these incidents after the fact, but rather to figure out some way to prevent them in the first place. i also agree that it’s not gonna be quick and easy, but is gonna have to be addressed on many fronts (including training, management, oversight and discipline) and is gonna require a seismic shift in the way we as Americans view policing.

The first step (as always) is to admit we have a problem!

mc

A lot of police are not interested in you, your life or anything about you. They want compliance, and when they aren’t granted that, whether demanding that is justified or not (like asking some random dude walking down the street to show ID for no good reason), they get testy. That’s part of it. Things tend to escalate with the cops from there. Some of my favorite YouTube videos are people being harassed by the police for no good reason and standing up for their rights on camera, often befuddling the cops, many of whom are ignorant of or deliberately ignore the law.

The other part of it is that cops are not judge and jury (or executioner). In this case, the guy was very likely the same guy busting out windows or whatever. So what? He didn’t deserve to die for that, and it’s not for over-amped cops to decide his fate either. Arrest the guy and haul him in. That should be the outcome goal of EVERY police interaction with criminal suspects not actively trying to kill or directly threaten the police.

I think that some of this stems from the militarization of the police forces, some of it is big fish, small town stuff, some is racially motivated, or whatever.

I do know that there are some police forces that allow the cops to turn off their bodycams. WTF? Why would you allow that? None of them should have the ability to do so. In this day and age, their actions should always be documented. But, like Stranger alludes to, sometimes even that evidence somehow doesn’t fly in the face of “split second decisions” and whatever other stressful situations the cops are supposed to be trained to deal with. All too often lethal force is escalated to immediately before other available options are even tried. There is still a culture of “circling the wagons” that police forces employ, and that needs to stop. A guilty cop should be charged like the rest of us, perhaps with even more egregious charges since they are supposed to be held to a higher standard of public trust. To protect and serve, not shoot to kill.

I have seen plenty of police that get involved in and regularly interact with the citizens on their beat. Not only is this a way to glean valuable information for them, but also to form a bridge between people suspicious of the police and themselves, but also to remind the police that they are dealing with human beings with irreplaceable lives and everyone’s got problems.

I am certain there’s a gun culture tie-in with this, but that’s a suspicion on my part not really supported by evidence.

It’s a very fair assessment to say that they cops vastly overreacted in this case. I find one thing sadly funny about these instances. Cops shoot at the guy several times, declare “he’s down” and then still demand to see his hands. His dead, motherfucker. You killed him.