# Sterilization and Sexism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2008, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044 "2008-12-13T20:20:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/61 "2008-12-14T18:24:56Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I’m very curious about the whole “lawsuit” angle. > > Can anyone cite even one case of a successful lawsuit from a woman who agreed to be sterilized, but later regreted it? Or a man, for that matter? Here’s opposite, from 35 years ago: [women suing to _be_ sterilised](http://www.popline.org/docs/0150/732930.html). ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/62 "2008-12-14T18:30:36Z")
Another related area is the [“Wrongful Pregnancy Action,”](http://www.fightingforyou.com/SiteMap/ShowTopic,3,105.html) in which women sue doctors if they conceive after a sterilisation procedure. And as an anecdote, the OP [here](http://www.atheistnexus.org/group/thechildlessandgodless/forum/topics/2182797:Topic:65445) is having the same problems as women seeking sterlisation. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/63 "2008-12-14T21:30:59Z")
I think women who have this done early in life have a very good chance to greatly regret it. I feel that women are naturally ‘wired’ to desire to have children, it is only the lies of this world that has many convinced they can really be happy without them. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/64 "2008-12-14T22:05:42Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Except this isn’t a matter a sizable portion of doctors won’t perform sterilization procedures on women but will on men–this is a virtually uniform practice across the profession. And no one has presented any evidence whatsoever that patients are more likely to sue over this issue than they are to sue over any other elective procedure. But it also isn’t a matter of the same doctors performing sterilization procedures on men and refusing to perform them on women. It’s generally going to be an OB/GYN treating women and a urologist treating men. I don’t know of any evidence that women are more likely to sue over this issue, but I’d be willing to bet that OB/GYNs are more likely to be sued than urologists are. And a lawsuit doesn’t need to be successful to change someone’s behavior. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/65 "2008-12-14T22:13:54Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I think women who have this done early in life have a very good chance to greatly regret it. I feel that women are naturally ‘wired’ to desire to have children, it is only the lies of this world that has many convinced they can really be happy without them. So? Even if what you say is true, why should the freedom to make this bad choice, of all the bad choices in all the world, be denied to women? And in any case, many women may want children but feel like they ought not have them–due to their own personality issues or the genetic legacy they carry. There are lots of reasons not to have children beyond the simplistic “not wanting them” ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/66 "2008-12-14T22:15:18Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > But it also isn’t a matter of the same doctors performing sterilization procedures on men and refusing to perform them on women. It’s generally going to be an OB/GYN treating women and a urologist treating men. I don’t know of any evidence that women are more likely to sue over this issue, but I’d be willing to bet that OB/GYNs are more likely to be sued than urologists are. And a lawsuit doesn’t need to be successful to change someone’s behavior. That may be a reason, but is it a justification? Do you really feel it’s right that the standards for getting the two procedures done are so different? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/67 "2008-12-14T23:06:49Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Not to get into the rest of the thread, but wouldn’t that be something that changes by geography? I seem to remember reading than in some countries/areas (Puerto Rico, Mexico), female sterilization is one of the main forms of birth control. Now, by the time it is performed the woman already has one (or more) kids, but there is no question nor is it denied… > > My cousin’s wife had her tubes tied immediately after having her second child (she was in the late 20’s-early 30’s, in Puerto Rico), and had no problem finding who would do the procedure, which is why I find it weird what happened to your friend. AFAIK this woman didn’t have to change doctors or anything, my impression was more that she had to go through a lot of “You’re sure? You’re sure you’re sure? You’re really, really, REALLY sure?” before her doctor would agree to tie her tubes. I know she had the procedure performed locally. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/68 "2008-12-14T23:41:54Z")
Why are some people getting so upset when being told by others that they think they at some point later on might still want to have children, even though they don’t want any just now? Many people have experienced not wanting to have children, and at a later time changed their mind. I didn’t want children when I was 22. Now I want more. Sure some people never want children. Not when they are 22, 32 or 42. Many other people on the other hand do change their mind. And is it really a good idea to force doctors to perform operations they find ill advised? If a guy come in and insists on a trepanning, few people would think the doctor should be forced to perform such an operation against his own best judgement. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/69 "2008-12-14T23:47:17Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > That may be a reason, but is it a justification? Do you really feel it’s right that the standards for getting the two procedures done are so different? If there were one organization setting different standards for the two procedures , it would be wrong and sexist. But in my view, it’s impossible to call it sexism when each individual doctor is making his or her own decision based on their own experiences. Individual doctors might actually be sexist, but there’s just no evidence to say that as a group, doctors are doing this because of sexism and the situation would be no different if urologists had the highest malpractice premiums and any behavioral differences between the patient groups were reversed. And there may be behavioral differences- men may be less likely to request sterilization at a young age or when they are childless, or less likely to change their mind or even just less likely to let the doctor _know_ they changed their mind. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/70 "2008-12-15T00:03:28Z")
I knew a woman who got her tubes tied in her 20s. The operation gave her Guillain-Barre syndrome, which took forever to get diagnosed. One of the hoops she had to jump through on the way to the right diagnosis was a stay at a psych unit, with a psychiatrist who thought it was all in her head: Since she was going against her Womanly Reason For Existence, she had to have a lot of repressed feelings about the surgery, which were causing her symptoms. > [@kanicbird](#): > > I think women who have this done early in life have a very good chance to greatly regret it. I feel that women are naturally ‘wired’ to desire to have children, it is only the lies of this world that has many convinced they can really be happy without them. You’re not a doctor, are you? ---
**Author:** ![Jillyvn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Jillyvn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillyvn)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/71 "2008-12-15T00:07:54Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Why are some people getting so upset when being told by others that they think they at some point later on might still want to have children, even though they don’t want any just now? Many people have experienced not wanting to have children, and at a later time changed their mind. I didn’t want children when I was 22. Now I want more. Sure some people never want children. Not when they are 22, 32 or 42. Many other people on the other hand do change their mind. > > And is it really a good idea to force doctors to perform operations they find ill advised? If a guy come in and insists on a trepanning, few people would think the doctor should be forced to perform such an operation against his own best judgement. With all due respect, I am not upset when other people tell me at some point I might want children. 99 percent of the time, I smile it off, after all - anyone who knows me knows just how seriously I am committed to not having a child, so people who say this likely are strangers or new to my life. I am “upset” when I am told by a doctor, regarding what I view as an entirely rational, well thought out and valid medical decision, that my whimsical decision will change once I get the baby bug. This is not a valid reason to deny a medical procedure. Would you have elected to be sterilized at 22? I would have, and eight years later, I can tell you my decision remains the same. I am very open about my decision, and I know from personal experience that it can be very difficult for the average person to understand why I don’t want to have a child at first, but once I explain my decision (if I choose to elaborate), everyone comes around. I’m not sure why I should even have to, but I am fine with it. I am less ok with the doctor’s responding like a “friend” than a medical professional. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/72 "2008-12-15T00:52:18Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I feel that women are naturally ‘wired’ to desire to have children, it is only the lies of this world that has many convinced they can really be happy without them. So, if I say I’m quite happy, your reply is what? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/73 "2008-12-15T01:06:20Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I think women who have this done early in life have a very good chance to greatly regret it. I feel that women are naturally ‘wired’ to desire to have children, it is only the lies of this world that has many convinced they can really be happy without them. I’m in my 40’s and I’m quite happy. I knew when I married my husband he was sterile. No children, but happy. Are you saying I’m mis-wired, or saying I’m not a woman…? I mean, really, if it had been that important to me to have children I would have, but it’s not. I just couldn’t be bothered to buy a turkey baster. If I can’t expend that little effort and money I guess I just don’t want children. ---
**Author:** ![catsareawesome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@catsareawesome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsareawesome)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/74 "2008-12-15T01:35:27Z")
I had my tubes tied when I was 25. I wasn’t married and I hadn’t had children. The doctor asked what if I meet someone who wants children and my reply was that he wouldn’t be the man for me. I wasn’t about to have a child just to make some man happy. I also told him I would never be able to afford a child and that I dislike anyone who has a child and has to have help. I also explained that I like to be able to go where I want and when I want without having to worry about finding a babysitter. Last but not least I told him that since baby selling was illegal I told him I wasn’t about to have a child unless I could benefit from it. After that he agreed and said that he hopes I don’t regret it. It’s been 22 years now and I haven’t regretted it for a second. So you just have to be persistent. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/75 "2008-12-15T01:44:48Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > So, if I say I’m quite happy, your reply is what? Well, “lies of this world” obviously. Personally I think it’s great some people, many people, and especially people whom don’t want children, aren’t having them. It’s merely Darwinism in action. Their genes have shown themselves to be evolutionary defective and they are voluntarily removing themselves from the common future genepool. I expect, it will in some small way result in people in the future will love their children more. Besides it leaves more space for my brood. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/76 "2008-12-15T01:50:41Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > So? Even if what you say is true, why should the freedom to make this bad choice, of all the bad choices in all the world, be denied to women? Having M.D. at the end of your name doesn’t turn you into your patient’s slave. If someone is uncomfortable with performing a procedure, I don’t see why they should. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/77 "2008-12-15T01:52:21Z")
> [@](#): > > **Manda JO** said: > They are simply told “no”. That is actually the most polite of the responses that I have gotten. Most are far more insulting and unprofessional. > [@](#): > > **KarlGrenze** said: > My cousin’s wife had her tubes tied immediately after having her second child (she was in the late 20’s-early 30’s, in Puerto Rico), and had no problem finding who would do the procedure, which is why I find it weird what happened to your friend. The key factor there is that she had children. > [@](#): > > Again, they already had a couple of kids, but unlike someone else’s relative experienced earlier in this thread, there was no question about doing the surgery. Entirely because they had already fulfilled their womanly duty – they already had kids. > [@](#): > > **kanicbird** said: > I think women who have this done early in life have a very good chance to greatly regret it. And there are women who have a kid and regret that they did. Which is worse? > [@](#): > > I feel that women are naturally ‘wired’ to desire to have children, it is only the lies of this world that has many convinced they can really be happy without them. I have never wanted children. I’ve known this in the same way that I know I am straight for as long as I can remember. The idea of having a kid is so foreign and alien to me that I have a hard time even imagining it. Thanks to attitudes like yours, I have been faced with medical professionals who have been so cruel as to suggest that there is something fundamentally wrong with my brain, that I have a mental disease, or that I am a failure of a woman because I lack all desire to ever have a kid. Complete strangers feel free to comment on my lack of children as if my childlessness is some sort of tragedy, or to remind me that I better get cracking on popping out some sprog because I’ll run out of time. While you may not be able to imagine what it is like to be a woman who doesn’t want kids, you should also recognize that those who are like me are unable to imagine what it is like to be a woman who does want them. I can no more picture myself as a mother than I can picture myself as a lesbian, or a black person, or a religious believer. It is not who I am. > [@](#): > > **Rune** said: > Why are some people getting so upset when being told by others that they think they at some point later on might still want to have children, even though they don’t want any just now? Ever ask a gay person if they might be straight later on in life? Ever ask a straight person if they might be gay later on in life? Ever ask someone who’s 25 and having a kid ‘What if you decide when you’re 35 that you never really wanted kids?’ If you wouldn’t comment to them, you shouldn’t comment to me. The short answer to this is that it’s really fucking rude to say something like that. > [@](#): > > **catsareawesome** said: > So you just have to be persistent. I guess trying to get fixed for twelve years isn’t persistent enough. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/78 "2008-12-15T02:05:50Z")
A couple of additional thoughts / comments: 1. When I had my vasectomy, I was counseled by the Doctor. He spoke to me, he spoke to my wife, and he told me that if I was even slightly wondering about the reversal possibilities he did not want to do the surgery for me. I had kids already, and we were fine - but I did go through counseling. 2. Vasectomies are done by Urologists. Penis specialists. That is a different doc than an OB/GYN. I would hypothesize that OB/GYNs have a different mindset than Urologists, helping drive more of the “are you sure” types of comments. 3. When my wife was pregnant with our second child, we asked our OB/GYN if he would perform an abortion if the child was Down’s syndrome, etc. He said no, but that he would give us the name of a doctor that would. I would make some calls to find a doctor who will perform the surgery, perhaps even calling the insurance company for a name of someone who will do the work and go in with the authorization. If they still say no, ask who will. After that, contact the medical director at the local hospital for the name of the doctor who will do the procedure. Having the “referral” come in from the top might help. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/79 "2008-12-15T02:12:50Z")
It seems accepted here that young childless men have no trouble getting a doctor to agree to sterilize them, but is that always the case? Usual disclaimer about being outside the US and things maybe being different here, but I ask because I’ve known several men who were denied vasectomies because of their age, one of whom was a 24 year old father of four. He was absolutely rock-solid in his conviction that he didn’t want more children, and his wife had vowed after the last time that she would never endure pregnancy and childbirth again so she was completely on board with the decision. The doctor asked him “What if you split up with your wife and meet another woman who does want children?” and he said “I’ll still have the four I already have to support.”. The doctor still wouldn’t agree to the operation at that point but said if he went through counseling to make sure it was the right choice, and still wanted it done after 12 months, he’d see about giving him a referral for it.\* They were furious that they had to wait and quite vocal about how absurd it was to treat adults as though they couldn’t make decisions about their own bodies or fertility. > [@Drain Bead](#): > > I’ve also heard about successful tubal reversals–I’ve seen a few women get pregnant after a tubal reversal on a pregnancy message board I frequent. I think these are the people the OP needs to slap. I’ve met many people who’ve had reversals or who were adamant in their youth that they never wanted children, and changed their minds later. I know comparatively fewer people who have remained happily childless by choice for all their lives. I guess that doctors have trouble believing _you_ because of the other umpteen patients they’ve had in who swore, vowed, declared and insisted that they never ever ever wanted any [more] children, no way, not in a million years… and then changed their minds. How’s a doctor supposed to tell the difference? - Several months later, he and his wife changed their minds and started trying for number 5 :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044/80 "2008-12-15T02:39:54Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I think women who have this done early in life have a very good chance to greatly regret it. I feel that women are naturally ‘wired’ to desire to have children, it is only the lies of this world that has many convinced they can really be happy without them. I’m sorry, but I think you meant to post this in the [Things you believe in but cannot prove](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=497022) thread. > [@catsareawesome](#): > > I had my tubes tied when I was 25. I wasn’t married and I hadn’t had children. Are you willing to share where you live? > [@Algher](#): > > A couple of additional thoughts / comments: > 2) Vasectomies are done by Urologists. Penis specialists. That is a different doc than an OB/GYN. I would hypothesize that OB/GYNs have a different mindset than Urologists, helping drive more of the “are you sure” types of comments. Now\* that’s\* an interesting thought. Perhaps it’s the fact that OBs are so constantly trying to bring babies into this world that makes them project\* that desire onto their patients. Maybe women would do better talking to a GP instead of an OB. \*“project” in the layperson sense, not the Freudian, of course. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sterilization-and-sexism/477044.md?page=5)