Steve Jobs vs. Journalism & Free Speech

If anything good comes out of this, then hopefully all of those idiots that bought the upscale specialty item sold by Macintosh instead of the more moderately priced PC, will come to realize that Mac is not some bastion of hope for the oppressed.

This may not be a first amendment issue but Apple is being really stupid. The First Amendment was meant to level the playing field and now Apple wants to redefine journalist to keep the ‘hoi polloi’ from using it in order to further a short term agenda.

The definition of ‘blogger’ is too loosely defined to be a legally useful definition for what someone does. Everyone should have their right to privacy respected, it shouldn’t be limited to some meritocratic elite.

Erek

OK, you’re right on this point, and I misunderstood what you were saying. Of course I understand how retail works.

No I am not. There’s no “must” about that aspect of my objections, which I made clear in the OP. Because there are a host of legitimate issues any company may have to confront in B-to-B arrangements such as this, I would state catagorically that it would be wrong to “compell”. That doesn’t mean I think companies and executives should go around abusing their rights in an effort to stifle mere expression, which is exactly what is going on here. Legal? Sure, and that’s the only way things can be for very practical reasons. But ethical in this case? I really don’t think so.

Loopydude, your name says it all. There is no First Amendment issue present in this thread, not even in the dustiest corners of it. Steve Jobs can sell whatever books he likes, OR NOT. The FA and/or Freedom of Speech do NOT apply to this case. :rolleyes: X infinity

And it’s still wrong to force people (and companies) to purchase stuff from companies that they disagree with, especially because they disagree with them.

I know you’ll state that’s not what you’re arguing for, but since the world works the way it does, it is.

Jesus fucking Christ, do any of you actually read what I’m saying? Have you clicked on even one of the cites? How can you say there’s no FA issue with the bloggers, which is what I fucking was talking about when I brought up the First Amendment! Is the director of the New Media Program at the U of CA, Berkeley as fucking incapable of reading comprehension as you are?

And if you think financial retribution against a company that publishes one book, such that you sell none of their books, and cause some amount of financial harm to all the other authors who do business with that company, merely because something they said pissed someone off, isn’t a free speech issue, then fine. I am not at all the only person who feels just the opposite, so unless there’s some gigantic conspiracy of dipshits operating somewhere other than in this thread, I’m not sure you’ve grounds for the infinite rolleyes just yet.

AGAIN:

You were the one who brought up First Amendment issues in regards to the Dummy books, not us.

And the fact that others in this thread share your opinion does not a valid argument make.

This is not a First Amendment Issue, but it is a Free Speech issue. Steve Jobs is stifling someone’s ability to communicate, even though he helped create the venue for communication with which he is using to stifle it.

Steve Jobs has no right to see bloggers logs, and has no obligation to stock the guy’s books.

And JohnT: I can’t wait til the world suddenly doesn’t work the way you think it does, because even though you’re a funny dude (based upon your qualifying everything thread) it’ll be great to see the look on everyone’s faces when their assumptions they thought were self-evident suddenly come to be called into question.

I dunno what the fuck this has to do with ethics. Business ethics is a goddamn oxymoron when you’re at Jobs’ level.

Erek

Ahem…perhaps you should go back and read the first four paragraphs of your OP. It most certainly doesn’t appear you were talking about the bloggers when you make your “attack on free speech” claim.

And apart from that, what kind of sense would it make for Jobs to allow books to be sold in his stores when they’re published by a publisher who’s trying to make him look bad? I don’t think Jobs is trying to “punish” Wiley & Son’s; I don’t think he even thinks of it in those terms. To me, it’s simply a common-sense business decision.

I don’t see any way that Jobs could continue to sell products by a firm that was working to defame him without it making him appear on the one hand to have no balls, or to be a money-grubber on the other by continuing to sell products made by a company that was out to defame him.

In short, I think Jobs’ decision was the only sensible way for him to react.

Considering that the bloggers were (re)posting corporate trade secrets, in clear violation of Californialaw, I think he does.

As for the biography, my half-assed guess is that Jobs doesn’t like it just because he really values his privacy. AFAIK he’s never liked any book that gets into his personal life, not even the thinly-disguised biography his sister wrote.

I can see him not wanting to carry the biography. But to not carry the other books, which are pretty durn successful, seems silly and childish. But, hey, it’s his company.

Okay, first, I don’t take kindly to being called a “twit” by someone who non-ironically uses the term “blogosphere.”

Second, I don’t take kindly to being accused of “arguing out of my ass” by someone who keeps changing his fucking argument as it suits him. Apparently, you get to decide what’s relevant and what’s not, and don’t like the idea of anyone disagreeing with you.

“Evil Steve Jobs is refusing to sell books from an entire retailer out of spite! That’s a violation of free speech! Wait, what? That’s not a violation of free speech? Well – you’re dumb! And what about this book that’s unfavorable to him? I bet he’s not going to sell that in the store, either! That’s clearly a violation of free speech! No? Then what are you, some kind of dipshit? What I was really talking about how he’s saying the bloggers aren’t real journalists, and is trying to shut them down! What? He’s not trying to shut them down? Uh, can’t you read, you idiot? I’m not talking about the legality of it, I’m talking about the ethics of it!” etc. etc. etc.

Third, I don’t take kindly to being accused of being a “dipshit” with faulty reading comprehension by someone who provides links to cites that don’t agree with what he’s saying. Even the highly-opinionated Forbes article you linked to made it clear that the real issue at hand is not whether a retailer is permitted to boycott inflammatory against its chief executive, or whether blog-writers are permitted to post what they “discover,” or even whether the “blogosphere” counts as journalism. The issue is whether they are legally bound to reveal their sources when they post corporate espionage, something that granted, you did acknowledge in the first line of your OP but then completely missed the point of in every other thing you’ve written in this thread.

That is why legitimate news agencies are “concerned” about the status of blogs, because it could set a legal precedent that hurts real news sources. So then genuine journalists could conceivably be limited in their reporting exposes of genuine cases in the public interest, all because some fuckwit wanted to post confidential corporate information on his website and then go running for protection under the First Amendment when he got caught. I see it as the ethical equivalent of Larry Flint wrapping himself in an American flag and making it an issue of free speech, forcing legitimate agencies to get on his side because he’s technically correct, and all because he wanted to publish pictures of women tied up and getting peed on.

Fourth, I’m wondering where the hell you get off talking as an authority about “ethics.”

So at worst, they intentionally broke a signed legal contract. No, nothing unethical about that.

Even though they know that the information isn’t being obtained through legitimate channels, and they’re not alerting the public to a threat or danger or scandalous activity, just attracting hits to their website. Nothing unethical about that, either.

And in this case, I agree with Apple. See “journalistic integrity,” above. They’re not trying to shut the bloggers down; they’re trying to find out how they got access to trade secrets, and using a legal definition argument to gain a subpoena, since other routes have failed. Is it perfectly fine and good that it came to this level of legal action? No, it sucks. But how did it get to this point? Because Steve Jobs is a self-righteous asshole? No. His being an asshole is a completely separate issue, which is more than adequately documented elsewhere. You can paint Jobs and Apple as the bad guy all you want, but in doing so, you’re defending people who do no more than break contracts or spread proprietary information for their own gain.

Highly arguable? What the fuck is there to argue? How can you possibly say that it’s in the public interest to announce whether there’s a new iPod coming out? How can you possibly say that it’s worth putting the real issue of journalistic integrity and confidentiality at risk?

Fifth, it’s spelled “opinion,” dammit.

And the difference is?

No, the publisher creates the venue for communication. Steve Jobs just provides one of the (many, many, many) outlets for distribution. But here we’re just arguing semantics, I think…

Happens all the time. The trick is to accept the paradigm shift rather than getting all pissy about it.

And you know this, how?

When anybody does anything to restrict the discourse, a freedom of speech and a censorship issue. This can be good, bad, or neither. Even though my employer isn’t the government, they’re still restricting my freedom of speech by not allowing me to browse porn sites at work.

When the government does it, it’s a Fo’S, censorship, and a First Amendment issue.

Loopydude never metioned the First Amendment in his OP, which is why everybody attempting to score a point on the “government” technicality are full of shit.

One is a legal issue the other is a philisophical issue as black455 pointed out.

The venue of communication would be the stores that convey the publisher’s product to the market place. In other words the “Apple Store”.

Of course, you just said something about the way things work very authoritatively, so I was digging into that. :wink:

Because as one gains power the line of ethics becomes increasingly blurred. I don’t know how many times I have seen people argue ethics when really they are arguing their own self-interest, as though ethics has anything to do with them staying filthy rich.

I could argue that what Steve Jobs did to Xerox is unethical. I could argue that his treatment of his employees is unethical. I could argue that their ad campaigns misrepresenting their bourgie capitalist pigtoy as though it is some kind of revolution against ‘the man’ is unethical. The line of ethics is blurry as it is, that kind of opulent wealth only makes it blurrier. I know plenty of people who consider making a profit at all to be unethical.

Erek

In case anyone is interested, the new book is written by Jeffrey S. Young, who wrote an excellent account of Jobs and the creation and rise of Apple in the book “The Journey Is The Reward” back in the late eighties. Jobs came off as a brilliant asshole in that book, and while this one is supposed to be more lauditory, I can see where Jobs would be less than pleased about its publication.

Young is an excellent writer, however, and he has a wonderful talent for making the technical and business aspects of computerdom seem interesting and understandable.

I wasn’t much interested in the new book til I learned that Young was the author. Now I’m looking forward to it.

Reads thread.

Despairingly throws hands in air.

Goes home to weep for his country once again…

You’re weeping?

You consider bloggers to be legitimate journalists and because that load of horseshit won’t sell you’re weeping?

The computers for dummies books won’t be sold in apple stores. They’ll still be all over hell and back in other stores, but because people think it’s fine for the Apple store to not sell the Dummy books you’re weeping?

People think it’s okay for bloggers to be forced to turn over the leaks of company secrets and for that you are weeping?

I think it’s far more weep worthy that people have lost so much faith in journalism that idiots with computers are considered legitimate news sources, but maybe that’s just me.

I think it’s far more weep worthy that you think that the right to privacy only applies to a narrow group, and think that a big corporation notorious for stealing other company’s secrets has more right to read someone’s e-mail than that person has the right to state what they know free and unfettered.

Who cares if a blogger is a ‘journalist’ or not?

Erek

One thing that I think might have gotten overlooked in the bruhaha over the new Jobs biography is that Wiley & Sons sent an early copy of it to Apple for proofing/review, and they were asked to not publish it. The “book ban retaliation” thus appears to be in response to W&S not complying with that request.

Whether or not that casts the matter in a new light is up to you.

And?

I have never done that. The relevant arguments and issues regard FA and financial damage concerns, which I did not spell out for you in monosyllabic terms, unfortunately, are all in the cites, which you apparently have ingored. In short, fuck you.

Read carefully: The FA issues are related to the bloggers. That is what qualifies in this discussion as what I and many others (if you read the fucking cites, ass) constitutes a blatant attack on FA protections. You are deliberately mischaracterizing everything I say. Read what I fucking said:

You wanna read into that I said he broke the law? Fine, you may again fuck off. If you read it to mean I’m identifying the ethical breakdown in his actions, which amount to a free speech assault, whether it slips under constitutional radar or no, then you got the message, brainiac.

Oh, Sol, I know it’s complicated, but, you see, as I’ve said over and fucking over again, there are two relevant issues in the thread, one a court battle over the FA, the other a bullying and secretive executive who is penalizing an entire publisher (and all associated authors, if you only read the fucking cites) for the unflattering content of one book, which is the purely ethical part of the speech issue, not the legal part.

::sigh::

If you go to
[/QUOTE]
this page, you will see a link to the amicus curae, provided by the news sources backing the bloggers. A relevant quote:

The web journaists are reporting information that is of public interest. Simple as that. They are reporting on information that has only finite “secrecy” and will be released in short order into the public domain. There is no clear evidence Apple is being harmed in any way by rumormongering, and it’s a cottage industry in the IT world that has been going on in trade mags for decades now. If you want to rewrite the standards of journalistic integrity and ethics to suit your own definition, that’s your choice to do, but you’re debating out of your arsehole. You have not supplied me with a single legal cite, precedent, opposing view that is inarguable, definitive claim from a legitimate news source the bloggers were operating unethically, not anything in the way of a substantive rebuttal. Just your bullshit hypotheticals, and apparrently your own misinformed views about what constitutes legal and corporate ethics.

Well, gee, according to eight major newspapers and the Associated Press, it’s a matter of journalistic discretion, should they not be violating the law. The real interests of journalistic integrity are at risk because the effects of taking that discretion from the press could be devastating. It is an arguable point in some circles, but you have no basis in fact or theory to assert that it’s anywhere near as clear-cut as you claim. I’m inclined to regard that entire line of argument as specious, at best.