Stickshift v. Automatic

Great Debates
21

Stick is definitely better, for several reasons.

One, it’s fun. I like the total driving experience. Driving an automatic is like a go-cart for me.

Two, you have control over the engine, and you can balance power and acceleration for whatever the situation calls for. The better ‘jump’ from a dead start is the most obvious benefit, but there are countless little situations where a sudden shift up or down can give you a needed boost to change lanes or avoid some stupid driver.

Three, in an emergency you can downshift to slow the car. It’ll ruin the clutch and the engine but you might save your life if the brakes are out and the handbrake is ineffective (most are pretty flimsy, my current car has a decent one) I have avoided a wreck in exactly this manner.

Four, better gas mileage. You can shift up at certain ‘either-or’ speeds around 20-40 when an automatic stays in the same one, and thus let the engine work less.

Five, it makes you concentrate on driving. Automatics make you lazy and more easily distracted if that right hand is free.

Six, you can start a battery-dead stickshift by putting it in neutral and pushing. This will, hopefully, charge the battery enough to get you going. Handy if you’re in the middle of nowhere with no-one to jump you. I’ve never had to do this, but I’m told it works.

Seven, if you do something wrong when shifting, the car stalls and stops. The brakes are linked to the clutch. Automatics just keep going. And on that note, sticks don’t have an idle speed.

The only disadvantage I know of to the stick is its problems with stopping and starting on hills. It drifts, no matter how fast you are, and you can bump people in close traffic. I live in Boston, so I have to watch this in certain areas. But if you’re experienced on the clutch, this is no problem, and you also know that the same hill can help start a dead stick.

22

Good topic AuraSeer!

Like all great debates, this one is fraught with myths and misconceptions…

First, during acceleration both automatics and stick shifts give you nearly the same control over the timing of gear changes. Not that this matters, much since most people don’t know the right timing and do not actually achieve optimum performance (on one end of the spectrum) and run the risk of damaging both automatic and manual transmissions (at the other edge of the spectrum).

For deceleration, manual transmissions have a clear advantage, although this is less of an issue with modern braking systems. In the pre-ABS days, you could use your manual transmission to perform what’s called “engine braking” which would slow down your vehicle reducing the risk of locking your brakes. Most people don’t do it right (if at all), but theoretically it could give you more controlled decellerations. Today, with modern Automatic Braking Systems, you can nearly get away with just “tromping” your brakes in any situation and not run the risk of a skid.

Manual transmissions tend to be higher maintenance, but this is probably attributable to lack of skill when drivers pit themselves agains those cherry red Camaros.

Also, proportionately, I’ll bet (though I don’t have the facts and figures to back this up) that there are more accidents in manual transmissions… Again, because of the way people drive them. On the automatic “creep”
causing more accidents… Maybe, but I’ll wager that nearly as many accidents happen due to false starts when the driver of the manual transmission stalls on takeoff and is rear ended by the guy behind him who’s racing that cherry red Camaro.

Revtim could also be describing what’s known as a “straight shift”. I’ve seen several varieties, though not one that is “notched” on the side the way Revtim seems to be describing. These strongly resemble automatics, but they use conventional gearbox technology with automatic clutches. I’ve heard that new, electronic versions of these may be coming out in the next few years that have all of the luxuries of automatics at less cost.

barton writes:

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Seven, if you do something wrong when shifting, the car stalls and stops. The brakes are linked to the clutch.

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Yeah, or you burn your clutch or strip your gears or lock your cam, etc…
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And on that note, sticks don’t have an idle speed.

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Not strictly true. Both manual and automatics will idle at some speed if they don’t have friction or gravity to overcome (i.e. on flat ground). When they have to overcome the forces of friction or gravity, the manual transmission will generally stall the engine (at which point it will start to roll backwards, possibly presenting new problems). The automatic will will gradually roll to a stop, but will generally “hold” in this position.
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The only disadvantage I know of to the stick is its problems with stopping and starting on hills. It drifts, no matter how fast you are, and you can bump people in close traffic. I live in Boston, so I have to watch this in certain areas. But if you’re experienced on the clutch, this is no problem, and you also know that the same hill can help start a dead stick.

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Try using the emergency brake and you won’t roll back. The trick is to ease the clutch out to the point where the vehicle wants to surge forward, then pop the brake. So simple even an old lady can do it… in her cherry red Camaro.

So far the only good arguments for manual transmissions seems to be the rolling start and lower prices at the dealer…

The best argument for automatics is that, for the average Joe Putz, he’ll get better fuel economy, he’s generally safer, and he’s less likely to do any serious damage to his transmission… unless he forgets to feed it transmission fluid.

Having said that, I drive stick shifts because they’re fun!!!

23

For driving in the snow, I’ll take a manual transmission any day. You have so much more control of the amount of torque that’s transmitted by the tires. When you go around a corner you’re much less likely to skid if you disengage the clutch to eliminate engine drag on the rear wheels and allow them to rotate freely. If you do find yourself in a skid, it’s much easier to regain traction if, while steering into the skid, you disengage the clutch to allow the wheels to match the road speed naturally.

24

Anybody who has to resort to this technique has no business driving a stick. You only roll back for the amount of time it takes your foot to move from the brake pedal to the accelerator. If your reactions are so slow as to allow more than six inches of roll-back, you probably shouldn’t even be driving a car, let alone one that isn’t an automatic.

25

Thor, automatics have one or two low gears you can shift to for climbing. They are usually three speeds [one less than a stick].

Papabear, you can start an automatic if you can get it going to 20mph and then you put it in gear.

I like to own one of both.I use an automatic When the lady is in the car I want her sitting next to me and I don’t like having to umm stick her crotch each time I shift.

But I like trucks and almost all of them I have seen are stick. They make some automatics, sure, but they are rare.

You can put an automatic into reverse at 50mph to save your life, too.

IN the 70’s they used to make a semi-auto in the US, mostly vw’s. Same as a stick but it clutched for you.

Clutches are not necessary really. You got one? Just Put the car in first and then start it and it’ll start and run without the clutch then you can shift to second again without using the clutch–its all synomesh these days. But easier if you do use the clutch.
NOTE: Cars do require you to push in the clutch as a safetey features to start these days, so you might need an old car for that test.

26

Stick shifts are primitive and labor-intensive phallic substitutes (“Ah, the POWER of my STICK!”).
Give me an automatic any day.

27

I disagree with the Manual sticks tend to be higher maintenance statement.

I’ve owned four cars. Two automatics. Two sticks. I have had to replace or rebuild the transmission on both automatics. I hate automatics. With the manuals the only major repair (for one) was replacing the clutch at 110k miles and the other replacing the brakes every two years (A whooping $99-110 for all four brakes.)
( I put 120k on it before selling it. Original clutch)

I am totally flabbergasted that so many people do not know how to drive a clutch. It is so easy. My neighbor tried to mow the lawn for her husband but could not figure out how to drive the riding lawn mower. Because I/we own not only a riding lawn mower but a farm tractor.I was called over to show her how everything worked. Sometimes I feel like the resident butch-girl because I know this stuff. These women (on my block are nice, but so fricking lame) Then she mows her property in first gear. I could have pushed mowed the lot faster. She now won’t mow because (pardon me while I rant) she can’t keep an eye on her baby girl in the playpen while mowing. Put the kid on your lap or in a baby back pack. In first gear the most dangerous thing that will happen is a mosquito might choke you. (their land is flat, they won’t flip.)

Also, sticks are much better for getting your car unstuck from icy/snowy conditions and popping the clutch for dead battery situations.

I thank you for allowing me to vent. Please resume your normal clear headed discussion.

28

handy, a minor nitpick: modern automatics tend to have 4 gears, not 3. I’m also under the impression that manuals have 5.

29

Papabear,

You wrote:

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Anybody who has to resort to this technique has no business driving a stick. You only roll back for the amount of time it takes your foot to move from the brake pedal to the accelerator.

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Try starting out on a 60% grade or steeper and with that fool in the automatic Lincoln Continental just two inches from your rear bumper!!! I rarely use the technique myself, however I took the British Driving test a few years back and it was required. I also noticed quite a few of my Brittish friends do this routinely.
Handy wrote:

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its all synomesh these days. But easier if you do use the clutch.

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Easier and safer. One of the problems that can occur with synchromesh gears is that you can get in between gears and it’s difficult to remesh. This happens quite often when someone tries to shift a manual transmission without using the clutch with the engine off.
It appears to shift, but doesn’t quite engage - then when they start the car and try to engage the gears with the clutch, they find they are locked out. There are only two ways to recover from this situation (1) if you’re lucky you can fumble around with the engine off, shifting clutchless from one gear to the next until you find one that meshes or (2) you can have your transmission disassembled…

I don’t know if it’s possible to “unmesh” by “dry” shifting when the engine is running, but I’d hate to chance it.
Shirley Ujest wrote:

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I disagree with the Manual sticks tend to be higher maintenance statement.

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I based that assertion on statements made by a mechanic friend of mine who used to work in the U.K., but now works in the U.S… In most of Europe, manual transmissions far outnumber automatics. The converse is true in the U.S… This guy claimed that the number of transmission jobs he did in the U.K. was a lot higher than in the U.S… I even questioned his assertion based on dollars (clearly it costs more to repair an automatic) and he maintianed that the frequency of manual transmission repairs to automatics was about 10 to 1. He said the average cost to repair automatics versus manual was less than 2 to 1. This is purely unscientific, but (having worked as a mechanic myself) it does seem to pass the common sense test. It’s easier to screw up a manual transmission.

30

I also believe manuals are less trouble at the shop than automatics, and I do like the fun of shifting. But as most automatics now come with 4 gears - one of them overdrive - this means the car is usually in the optimal gear for the speed you’re driving, unlike in the old days, when the three-speeds were a mere compromise. Also, I’m now driving a Ford Crown Vic LTD, as opposed to the VW of my youth, so automatic is pretty much de rigeur (sigh)…

31

In my view the reason I have stick shift cars is because they are more fun, pure and simple. There is a technique I learned from a race car driver called ‘heal and toe’ that they use for downshifting, double clutching and braking at the same time that I use when starting on a steep hill. You simply have your right foot on both the brake and accelerator pedal and rock it from the brake to the accelerator slowly. It took practice but I now can take off as smoothly on a hill as I can with my automatic that I use for work. The pedals have to be placed correctly but most cars can be used that way these days.

Challenging and fun.

32

Manual vs. Automatic?

Get what you want. It’s different for anybody.

I drive a cherry red '95 Camaro (I know that was mentioned earlier in this thread :wink: :wink: :wink: and I fit that stereotype) with a 5-speed manual (V6 engine, 160hp stock but with a few engine mods pulls closer to 250hp). I drove automatics for about ten years before I bought it (the previous manual was a POS 4-speed Ford Fiesta I had in high school) and I was just sick of autos. I am looking for a new car, and will probably stick with a stick (6-speed Trans-Am, V8 engine, 305h.p.). I like manuals for the control through the twisties (I live in the mountains). Gas mileage can be better for manuals too, if driven to conserve gas usage (which I rarely do). I like a stick in traffic, especially on the interstate, because it allows for much faster acceleration at 50+ mph speeds than any equivalent automatic could hope to offer.

But contrary to popular belief, sometimes automatics can be faster from a dead stop or low speeds if programmed correctly for it. Most of the fast stock drag racers prefer automatics because it is one less thing to worry about in the heat of a race (I’m primarily talking about Vettes, Mustangs, Firebirds and Camaros here). I drag race every now and then at the track (all my “serious” racing occurs at the drag strip, not the street, street-racing is very dangerous IMHO) and usually when I lose it’s to an automatic because of my own mistakes with the clutch or slow shifts. At that level it’s usually due to the driver’s skill who wins or loses.

It is correct that most modern automatics are 4 speeds, but manual transmission configurations vary widely, mostly due to torque or engine displacement. A 4 cylinder manual (Japanese or European imports) is usually a 4-speed but can be a 5-speed for turbos. A 5 cylinder (European models mostly - SAAB and Mercedes) or 6 cylinder manual (either flat 6 (Jeeps), V6 (base Camaro or Firebird) or boxer 6 (Porsche)) is usually 5-speed but can be 6-speed if there are superchargers or turbochargers involved or large displacement. An 8 cylinder (V8 - Corvette, Mustang GT or Cobra, Camaro Z28 or Firebird Formula or Trans Am), 10 cylinder (V10 - Dodge Viper, exotic European sedans (BMW 7 series and Jaguars) or large pickup trucks) is usually 6-speed (massive amounts of torque) and 12 cylinder (Jaguars, Mercedes, Ferraris and Lamborginis) are always 6-speed. Any more gears than 6 tend to complicate the transmission design without greatly increasing performance.

Sorry for getting long-winded…

I’ve got to go out, put my ballcap on backward (another Camaro driver stereotype), blast some Marilyn Manson and wipe some Honda Accords or Tauri wagons at the nearest stoplight…

(I’m really in my late 20s, happily married with 2 young kids, professional) Does that fit the Camaro stereotype?

33

Finaly a thread where Im not a black sheep!! lol

I prefer manuals too…my truck was given to me by an uncle who was tired of working on the truck. It is an 85 f150, and has went through two engines (soon to be three) and two transmissions. I drive it mostly in the woods and swampy dirt roads…I like a manuals control on these surfaces, you can choose a gear with power if driving on sand or a gear with speed on a dried clay road…Besides, I like to shift----and having three pedals on the floor looks kinda cool…
another plus for manuals—if you have a worn out engine (like mine) That manual lets you hold it in a certain gear, so that you dont strain the engine more than you have too-------------Soon I hope to replace that old ford 300 I-6 with a rebuilt one

“In wildness is the preservation of the world, so seek the wolf inside thyself”

34

Regardless of which transmission system you prefer, I feel everyone should at least know how to operate a manual. Sort of like knowing the multiplication tables and using a calculator. Anyone can drive an auto, just start it up and stomp on the gas pedal. You have a 50-50 chance of getting this one right even if you’ve never driven any vehicle more sophisticated than an ox cart. But on that day when the federales are shooting low and you and your baby’s only chance for escape is to drive away in a straight stick, it would do a lot for your chances if you have actually driven one before.

35

I live in Colorado, where there’s lots of mountains. Manual transmissions are the norm here - I don’t know anyone who has an automatic. You don’t want an automatic in the mountains. Trust me. I had a friend visit me a few years ago and she rented an automatic. We took it up to a mountain town, and it was terrible no matter what gear (drive, D1, D2) you put it in.

Going up the mountain, it was always lagging. Never seemed to get in the right gear, and I was mortified because there was always a huge stream of cars behind us, pissed because we were going so slow.

Coming down was worse. Out here, you learn pretty early on that you use your engine to slow you down when you’re descending for 20 miles. If you try to use your brakes, you’ll burn 'em out. You can smell the brake fluid burning from all the tourists ruining their cars on the weekends. This is a BIG hassle to control on an automatic - once again, no matter what “drive” setting you put it on, it’s never the right speed.

Maybe some automatics work better, but this one, and any other automatic I’ve had the pleasure of using in the mountains, really sucked. Much easier to have a stick.

36

Honda’s introduced another entrant: the continuous variable transmission on the Civic HX (the U.S. monicker). It’s really nothing new (Subaru tried it in the '70’s along with some other companies). Basically it’s just a belt between two variable, tapered pullies. By making the pulley wider or narrower, the belt moves to a smaller or larger track, respectively.

The Civic HX CVT is very weird to drive. The interface is similar to an automatic, except you’ve got low, sport, and drive instead of 1, 2, and drive. The computerized CVT puts sets the “gear” ratio based on the ground speed and the amount of power requested on the gas pedal. There is a computer controlled clutch that is between the transmission and the axle instead of between the engine and the transmission. It only decouples when you completely stop.

Basically, it feels like driving an automatic that never shifts. If you give it a moderate amount of gas, the engine revs to about 2,500 RPM and stays there while the car continues to accelerate. At full throttle, the engine sits at 5,500 RPM.

I also got a chance to try it on ice–it performed a lot better than most automatics. If you tap the gas, the clutch will lock up and the wheels will spin a little, but let off on the gas and you can creep along at 1 MPH or so. It works quite good.

Although it’s 105 HP, it is as fast as the 120 HP Civic EX–about a 9 second 0-60 time I think. The gas mileage is still different between the manual and the automatic, but it’s closer than the other Civics.

It’s pretty cool, but let’s face it: it’s a $17,000 Civic. Are you nuts? :slight_smile:

37

I prefer the manual transmission, but I also have a taste for huge 60s-vintage Detroit luxury rolling iron, and they weren’t making them available with manual transmissions for the most part.

If you are stuck with an automatic transmission, make the best of it–

a B&M Shift Improver Kit does wonders for the slushy, unresponsivle shifting of a passenger-car automatic transmission without turning it into something that hurts your butt when it shifts at 4 mph in the parking lot. And when you are responding to the cherry-red Camaro in the next lane, slide the lever into “L” and leave it there until the RPM = ideal performance shift point, then slip it to “S” (that’s “2” for you non-GM folks). Know your shift points; just because your transmission can do it for you doesn’t mean you can’t override it for the most part.

Somewhere in the accelerator linkage, you’ll find a switch that changes vaccuum to the transmission–this is what kicks it into “passing gear” when you tromp the gas pedal. Grab the electric leads and run wires to a second switch on floorboard or steering column, and you can shift to a lower gear without flooring it, or idle the transmission (as if by depressing the clutch on a manual transmission) when coasting. Nice for momentary increase of accelerator responsiveness when changing lanes in dense traffic.

You may also wish to look at aftermarket replacements for the torque converter, although I had no real complaints about the stock unit.

Designated Optional Signature at Bottom of Post

38

Ever get an automatic tranny worked on? It ain’t cheap! They are also quite complex internally, and therefore have more parts that can break. If you drive a manual the way it should be driven, going easy on the clutch and not grinding the gears, it will be much cheaper in the long run.

39

Whoami, I assume the only accords you beat with you 6 cyl. dinosaur are stock versions?? We could spin this off into another thread here in great debates, (I’m gonna put my own spin on it here) Old boring American 8cyl. dinosaur engine design VS Technologically advanced Japanese 4 and 6 cyl turbocharged designs. :slight_smile:
I am driving a “lightly modified” Celica, but I am about to trade it for an Eclipse turbo , which will be heavily modified. The downside to this whole debate is that we never get to see most of Japan’s best sportscars, due to emissions or manufacturers’ unwillingness to import them. There is a Celica drag car in Japan running with the MR2 turbo motor(which is available as a production car), which is modified and running 9.5 sec. 1/4 miles. It is modified heavily, but you can’t even get this car in its stock form here. My eclipse is going to dyno around 300 hp when it’s done(i hope). Eventually, I’m gonna trade it for a supra, and go hunting corvettes.

40

On a serious level, I strongly prefer a manual transmission, for the control reasons stated above.

Also, though, let us not forget the sage teachings of The Manly Handbook:

“A man should never drive an automatic transmission. The automatic transmission, you may recall, was invented so that women could learn how to block traffic from the driver’s seat, instead of doing it from the passenger side by jabbering away at hubbie so much he couldn’t concentrate.”