# Stigma of tagalog/Filipino and other creole languages **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 28, 2023, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229 "2023-08-28T14:53:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/41 "2023-08-28T23:59:49Z")
> [@Jagraze1](#): > > Quora Quora is one-half-step above asking your neighbor to answer something. Literally _anyone_ can answer a question on Quora, and I’ve seen many Quora answers on things that were flat-out wrong. Do you have any _scholarly_, serious cites? ---
**Author:** ![Jagraze1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jagraze1/32/14870_2.png) [@Jagraze1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jagraze1)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/42 "2023-08-29T00:00:34Z")
> **[Is Tagalog a Dying Language? - Quedank](http://quedank.com/article/history-culture/is-tagalog-a-dying-language/)** > > Tagalog is the National Language in the Philippines. It’s also called the Filipino Language and it has been the official language in the Philippines arguably \[...\] ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/43 "2023-08-29T00:03:51Z")
That appears to be an opinion article, written by a columnist whose other articles on that site are on a range of topics, including tourism. She includes one citation; the rest of her article reads like her personal opinion. Which is fine, but it’s **one person’s opinion** , and there’s zero sign that that person has any background in language study. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/44 "2023-08-29T00:06:17Z")
> [@Jagraze1](#): > > See but just because languages with many speakers don’t necessarily survive. Sanskrit is a good example. Sorry, this one made me snort. Sanskrit was spoken circa 1500–500 BCE. It there ANYTHING from that time that’s still spoken? My guess would be no. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/45 "2023-08-29T00:07:02Z")
I didn’t click your link, but what is Quedank? is it like an Esperanto version of Quora? (jftr, Quora is strictly a last-resort hit for me to click on when I do a Google search on an obscure subject/term). ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/46 "2023-08-29T00:08:11Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I didn’t click your link, but what is Quedank? It appears to be a Filipino pop-culture news site. So, it’s the moral equivalent of going to _People_ or _Popsugar_ for articles about the decline in Native American languages. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/47 "2023-08-29T00:14:18Z")
> [@Jagraze1](#): > > Sanskrit is a good example. Sanskrit lasted for 2850 years, according to the usual definition of Sanskrit. But, beyond that, many of the languages of northern India are descendants of Sanskrit. It’s just that as it continued to evolve, it got new names for the descendant languages. Claiming that it died out is like claiming Latin died out. French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Romanian, etc. are descendants of Latin. Furthermore, there are lots of speakers of both Sanskrit and Latin in their use as ritual languages. It’s standard to give different names to the older versions of languages and their descendant languages. There’s no reason to think that Tagalog will die out soon or that people will start using another name for any descendant language of it anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/48 "2023-08-29T00:24:36Z")
That Quedank article basically puts forth more elegantly and Filipino-centeredly what I was thinking when I wrote, > [@JRDelirious](#): > > IMO changes will happen, as with every other language, from the organic effect of a more connected world where people find that it is in their interest to more frequently learn and use one or more of the “world” languages (or of their general region’s majoritarian languages) in order to have access to what the rest of the world offers, and there will be a great amount of lexical exchange. One thing mentioned is that as a de-facto “common tongue” of Filipino _peoples_ what is emerging is a form of “Taglish” because it is often easier and more convenient to insert a well-established English word or phrasing than to try to hammer the concept into a “standard Filipino” equivalent. _And there is no way to force the people to do otherwise._ What are they going to do, punish kids for saying “vlogger”, “influencer”, “troll”, instead of whatever some professor says the correct Filipino word should be? The article essentially ends in that the Filipino peoples are choosing to be practical and that in any case even English may itself be very different 300 years from now. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/49 "2023-08-29T00:31:39Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > Sanskrit was spoken circa 1500–500 BCE. It there ANYTHING from that time that’s still spoken? Greek and Chinese, but both have gone through major changes since then. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/50 "2023-08-29T00:36:40Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Greek and Chinese, but both have gone through major changes since then. Saying that Greek and Chinese still exist from that time just means that a present version of those languages still exists. For whatever reason, we use the same name for both the versions from 3000 years ago and the versions spoken today. Much change has happened to them though. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/51 "2023-08-29T00:48:49Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > We’re doing your homework, aren’t we. I keep finding myself googling for answers, then stopping, because _why didn’t he do that?_ ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/52 "2023-08-29T04:58:02Z")
I saw all I needed to see in the Basque thread. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/53 "2023-08-29T09:54:18Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > As a dominant language of a population under literally centuries of colonial rule, the language incorporated quite a lot of vocabulary from the language of the colonial overlords (Spanish and English) but the core of the language itself (most vocabulary, grammar, pronunciation) are distinctly native. Filipino is no more a creole than English is. It might even be _less_ a creole than English is - the Norman Invasion had major impacts on the language spoken in England, not just vocabulary but also grammar, it’s when English lost nearly all of its grammatical gender, for example. A thousand years ago what we now call English was probably regarded as a bastard and debased language mix, what we’d now call a creole. But creoles are real languages, not a lesser form of communication, and given time (and an army) are just as worthy of respect as any other language. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/54 "2023-08-29T10:17:32Z")
> [@Jagraze1](#): > > See but just because languages with many speakers don’t necessarily survive. Sanskrit is a good example. Look, speakers does not determine language vitality. Many can’t speak Tagalog/Filipino fluently or as an everyday language. If nothing is done, tagalog could become the new Sanskrit No language lasts forever. They all change over time. I’m no authority regarding Sanskrit, so let’s look at Latin, another formerly very powerful language that is now dead, with no native speakers. After the fall of Rome Latin evolved into what we now call the Romance languages: French, Spanish, Italian, etc. So while Latin is dead it’s “daughters” are still very much alive. Given enough time, a languages changes sufficiently that it can now be called another language. > [@Yllaria](#): > > Sorry, this one made me snort. Sanskrit was spoken circa 1500–500 BCE. It there ANYTHING from that time that’s still spoken? My guess would be no. Hebrew. But it should be noted that Hebrew is a “zombie” language, back from the dead. I’m told there are notable differences between “Biblical Hebrew” and “Modern Hebrew”, to the point that when it comes to instruction they are offered separately. A Modern Hebrew speaker _might_ be able to follow a conversation in Ancient Hebrew, especially with a little practice, but the Modern version is so chock-ful of new terms and influences from other current languages someone from 500 BCE probably wouldn’t understand what the modern person is saying. So far as I know, it’s the _only_ language that has come back from the dead to having native speakers again. As liturgical languages both Latin and Sanskrit might have that as possibility if anyone cares enough to try, but let’s just say it’s highly unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/55 "2023-08-29T10:36:02Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > One thing mentioned is that as a de-facto “common tongue” of Filipino _peoples_ what is emerging is a form of “Taglish” because it is often easier and more convenient to insert a well-established English word or phrasing than to try to hammer the concept into a “standard Filipino” equivalent. _And there is no way to force the people to do otherwise._ What are they going to do, punish kids for saying “vlogger”, “influencer”, “troll”, instead of whatever some professor says the correct Filipino word should be? Well, there were instances of colonial powers doing exactly that - punishing children, up to and including physical beatings, for speaking the “wrong” language. It’s one of the reasons languages like North American Native languages, Irish Gaelic, Welsh, and a but of other languages are so much diminished. But I don’t see that happening to Tagalog in the Philippines. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/56 "2023-08-29T11:10:52Z")
Evolution is not the issue, though; that is supposed to be a natural process. The point is that you need , not necessarily absolute numbers, but you need— to make up a number— let us say at least 75% of people in a community to use a language on a daily basis. If they stop using it as a result of migration and assimilation, or colonialism, then language shift can take place. > [@Broomstick](#): > > But it should be noted that Hebrew is a “zombie” language, back from the dead. I’m told there are notable differences between “Biblical Hebrew” and “Modern Hebrew”, to the point that when it comes to instruction they are offered separately. A Modern Hebrew speaker _might_ be able to follow a conversation in Ancient Hebrew, especially with a little practice, but the Modern version is so chock-ful of new terms and influences from other current languages someone from 500 BCE probably wouldn’t understand what the modern person is saying. My (not completely informed) opinion is that it goes beyond the modern vs. ancient subject matter (and accent and alphabet): there is a bit of a disconnect between the spoken and the formal, written language. > [@Broomstick](#): > > So far as I know, it’s the _only_ language that has come back from the dead to having native speakers again. I do not know about that, but a key point is that the Israeli Institute of Technology and the Hebrew University were established using Hebrew as a medium of instruction, and some actual good work is done there making them relevant. Not to mention that Hebrew is taught in Israeli schools from primary school onwards. In _theory_ you could establish an institution using, e.g., classical Latin but people setting up international studies programs these days tend to use English— maybe this is bad as it reflects some cultural/imperialist baggage, but for instance English is the main language at the University of Hong Kong. [PS I do not know what would be a truly “neutral” language; you will have someone say that even Esperanto is Euro-centric.] ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/57 "2023-08-29T14:05:06Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > My (not completely informed) opinion is that it goes beyond the modern vs. ancient subject matter (and accent and alphabet): there is a bit of a disconnect between the spoken and the formal, written language. I am not sure as I can’t say I have any command of Hebrew, but I have been told that the typical word order of Biblical Hebrew and Modern Hebrew are different. That’s a fairly substantial difference right there. > [@DPRK](#): > > In _theory_ you could establish an institution using, e.g., classical Latin but people setting up international studies programs these days tend to use English— maybe this is bad as it reflects some cultural/imperialist baggage, but for instance English is the main language at the University of Hong Kong. There has to be some perceived benefit to doing so. With Jews, Hebrew had long been maintained in the center of their religion and so had enormous cultural weight and, after the state of Modern Israel was established, national identity. Hebrew had already functioned as a sort of _ligua franca_ for thousands of years, having a newly concentrated group of Jews with a multitude of native tongues helped to jump-start the process. Latin _used to be_ a _lingua franca_, but starting with the Reformation that started to change. Currently, English is a highly prominent international language, which is why it’s so widely taught as well as used for international discourse. That has a lot to do with the economic and military power of first the British Empire then the USA post-WWII. > [@DPRK](#): > > [PS I do not know what would be a truly “neutral” language; you will have someone say that even Esperanto is Euro-centric.] Esperanto is DEFINITELY Euro-centric, and has significant Slavic influence ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/58 "2023-08-29T14:33:02Z")
I agree. World language, indeed. “It’s easy to learn!” Well, if you’re a Norwegian living in the Alps… I started learning Esperanto as a teen, but realized I was only doing so as a novelty. I did laugh at the yearbook photo of [the Esperanto Club.](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/PsoAAOSwXwBi4cg6/s-l1600.jpg) (disclaimer: C. Estes Kefauver High School) ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/59 "2023-08-29T14:45:27Z")
**Moderating - Moderator Note** > [@Dorjan](#): > > We’re doing your homework, aren’t we. > [@digs](#): > > I keep finding myself googling for answers, then stopping, because _why didn’t he do that?_ > [@alovem](#): > > I saw all I needed to see in the Basque thread. If a particular user or their posts annoy you, then you know where the Pit is. Do not not threadshit and do not disparage the user. As for the reference to googling, while there is no rule specifically against that in MPSIMS (that rule only applies to FQ), when used in this manner it comes off as a pretty clear threadshit. Do not do this again. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229/60 "2023-08-29T14:47:58Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I am not sure as I can’t say I have any command of Hebrew, but I have been told that the typical word order of Biblical Hebrew and Modern Hebrew are different. That’s a fairly substantial difference right there. I have noticed various subtle and unsubtle differences, down to the very grammar, but going into detail is probably out of scope for a thread about Tagalog 🙂 You are right about Hebrew being a liturgical language. Interestingly enough, I remember reading that not all Catholic cardinals are fluent in Latin, or as fluent as they should be. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Esperanto is DEFINITELY Euro-centric, and has significant Slavic influence To generate Lojban vocabulary I believe they more consciously tried to mix up the source languages (Chinese, English, Hindi, Spanish, Russian, Arabic), but we are starting to get even more esoteric than Esperanto. There is also the possibility of promoting a real language like Tlingit; then nobody would accuse you of being too Euro-centric or Chinese-centric. BTW Esperanto is a good example of what I was claiming, which is that the number of people who use the language on a daily basis is extremely limited because they are not concentrated anywhere. If Filipinos want to promote Tagalog as a national language as opposed to English or Spanish, of course not 100% of people will be cool with that, but it _is_ possible to have multiple languages instead of making one more equal than the others, cf Belgium (not without its language wars, of course). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stigma-of-tagalog-filipino-and-other-creole-languages/989229.md?page=4)