# STII-Wrath of Khan: Did Khan have a legit gripe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 28, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129 "2015-08-28T01:33:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/1 "2015-08-28T01:33:23Z")
I’ve seen STII TWOK many times, loved it, quote it, etc. Over time, though, I’ve wondered if Khan might actually have had a legitimate gripe regarding Kirk never coming back, or sending anyone else, to check on how K and company were doing on Ceti Alpha V. I’m not excusing Khan for being a torturer and a megalomaniacal killer. I just think that if I had been in his position and a nearby planet exploded, rendering mine almost uninhabitable, I’d be pretty pissed as well if nobody in the Federation had even stopped by to see how things were going. Shouldn’t the Feds and others have known that an entire planet had blown up and shifted the orbit of another? Stellar cartography, anyone? ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/2 "2015-08-28T01:37:33Z")
I was under the impression that neither side wanted anything more to do with the other. The Federation left him in peace as requested. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/3 "2015-08-28T01:39:41Z")
Fuck him and his. The SOB tried to hijack a Federation starship. That’s a capital crime even in the “enlightened” Federation. Dump him and forget him. Let 'em rot. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/4 "2015-08-28T01:45:35Z")
I can picture him grabbing Tyrell and Chekov when they stumble into the _Botany Bay_ sections (this is actual a minor plot hole with _Space Seed_ - in addition to Khan recognizing Chekov, even though the character had not yet been introduced into the series, Khan discarded the _Botany Bay_ shortly after seizing the _Enterprise_. There was no indication Kirk went back for it or any part of it after regaining control) but once he realized who they were, he should have asked for evacuation and relocation, rather than gone all “eel” on them. As soon as he did that, his concerns didn’t matter nearly as much as the need to kill him and fast. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/5 "2015-08-28T01:48:36Z")
The only capital crime in the Federation is going to Talos IV. Khan has a legitimate complaint, but he didn’t make it. He tried to take over the world instead. Because he’s mad. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/6 "2015-08-28T02:08:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Khan discarded the _Botany Bay_ shortly after seizing the _Enterprise_. There was no indication Kirk went back for it or any part of it after regaining control) I don’t think the hab sections were from the sleeper ship, just the belt buckle that Chekov reads and a few other things Khan and Co had on their person at the time they were shipped down to the planet. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Enterprise carries some “temporary” housing for emergency situations, like an unexpected hurricane floods a Federation colony and the big E is the only starship in range (when is she NOT the only starship in range?). Anyway, I assume Kirk gave them the minimum and then expected to never see them again. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/7 "2015-08-28T02:11:13Z")
Bingo. **The Tooth** is incisive. Yes, Khan is right: they left him in an unstable solar system, and never came back to check. They didn’t even leave a monitoring satellite to watch to make sure he didn’t break out and cause trouble. So they fucked up twice: they blew their duty to him, and they blew their duty to the Federation. But Khan overplayed his grievance, so, tough toenails, gray-haired loonie with prosthetic man-boobs: die with a literary classic on your tongue…but just die. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/8 "2015-08-28T02:13:42Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > The only capital crime in the Federation is going to Talos IV. > > Khan has a legitimate complaint, but he didn’t make it. He tried to take over the world instead. Because he’s mad. No, visiting Talos IV is the only crime meriting the death penalty in Starfleet. (General Order No. 1, IIRC, from “The Menagerie.” Also, IIRC, Chekov mistakenly refers to “General Order No. 4” in “Turnabout Intruder.”) In “I, Mudd,” Spock cites a whole litany of deaths one might be subjected to for merely selling false patents on a particular planet. Near the end of “Space Seed,” Kirk laments having to commit Khan and his crew to a rehabilitation facility; that’s all highjacking a Federation starship merits. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/9 "2015-08-28T02:13:45Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > I don’t think the hab sections were from the sleeper ship, just the belt buckle that Chekov reads and a few other things Khan and Co had on their person at the time they were shipped down to the planet. > > I wouldn’t be surprised if the Enterprise carries some “temporary” housing for emergency situations, like an unexpected hurricane floods a Federation colony and the big E is the only starship in range (when is she NOT the only starship in range?). Anyway, I assume Kirk gave them the minimum and then expected to never see them again. Fair enough. I’d have to watch the scene again, but I guess I was thrown by Tyrell’s “If they crashed, then where’s the rest of the ship?”, suggesting he and Chekov were in _part_ of a ship. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/10 "2015-08-28T02:15:58Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > I don’t think the hab sections were from the sleeper ship, just the belt buckle that Chekov reads and a few other things Khan and Co had on their person at the time they were shipped down to the planet. Been some years since I last saw the movie, but wasn’t “SS Botany Bay” stenciled on the walls of the habitat? :dubious: 😕 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/11 "2015-08-28T02:16:14Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > I don’t think the hab sections were from the sleeper ship, just the belt buckle that Chekov reads and a few other things Khan and Co had on their person at the time they were shipped down to the planet. > > I wouldn’t be surprised if the Enterprise carries some “temporary” housing for emergency situations, like an unexpected hurricane floods a Federation colony and the big E is the only starship in range (when is she NOT the only starship in range?). Anyway, I assume Kirk gave them the minimum and then expected to never see them again. They might be some sort of shipping containers or something. > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > (this is actual a minor plot hole with Space Seed - in addition to Khan recognizing Chekov, even though the character had not yet been introduced into the series, Khan discarded the Botany Bay shortly after seizing the Enterprise. There was no indication Kirk went back for it or any part of it after regaining control) Not to mention the somewhat major plot point of the Reliant not realizing that the Seti Alpha system was missing one planet and the planet they thought they were on was in the wrong orbit. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/12 "2015-08-28T02:16:29Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > But Khan overplayed his grievance, so, tough toenails, gray-haired loonie with prosthetic man-boobs Hey! They’re _real_ and they’re _spectacular!_ In the DVD commentary, Nicholas Meyer says Montalban’s chest was real and he knew the audience would be wondering. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/13 "2015-08-28T02:20:27Z")
They also have the death penalty for murder on Argelius II in “Wolf in the Fold,” but it’s not made clear if the planet is a member of the Federation. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/14 "2015-08-28T02:21:30Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Not to mention the somewhat major plot point of the Reliant not realizing that the Seti Alpha system was missing one planet and the planet they thought they were on was in the wrong orbit. I wondered about that myself… :dubious: 😕 :smack: ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/15 "2015-08-28T02:28:11Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I wondered about that myself… :dubious: 😕 :smack: Oh come on! Like you’ve never landed on the wrong planet without realizing it? They were busy, and the crew gets so tired of that damn computer droning on about 30 seconds until something and someone report to sick bay that they just blank it out and don’t hear it saying that they’re landing on the wrong planet. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/16 "2015-08-28T02:29:38Z")
Joachin looked like that guy on Taxi. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/17 "2015-08-28T02:30:46Z")
IIRC, in the novelization, the discrepancy (missing planet, wrong orbital patterns) is noted when the Reliant enters the system; but, (again, IIRC) it was put down to some sort of data entry glitch since the Ceti Alpha system was so remote/“off the beaten path,” or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/18 "2015-08-28T02:31:12Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Bingo. **The Tooth** is incisive. Yes, Khan is right: they left him in an unstable solar system, and never came back to check. They didn’t even leave a monitoring satellite to watch to make sure he didn’t break out and cause trouble. So they fucked up twice: they blew their duty to him, and they blew their duty to the Federation. > > But Khan overplayed his grievance, so, tough toenails, gray-haired loonie with prosthetic man-boobs: die with a literary classic on your tongue…but just die. Khan and Co. when first found by the Enterprise were initially in the cryo sleep (or whatever it was) after having finally been defeated after the Khan and Co. attempt to conquer all the non-genetically enhanced people. Over reaction and insane murderous behaviour is part and parcel of Khan’s M.O. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/19 "2015-08-28T02:36:29Z")
NB: Federation Planet != Starfleet. The death penalty for visiting Talos IV is military justice. The death penalty for murder on Argelius II is civilian justice. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/20 "2015-08-28T02:37:08Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Oh come on! Like you’ve never landed on the wrong planet without realizing it? They were busy, and the crew gets so tired of that damn computer droning on about 30 seconds until something and someone report to sick bay that they just blank it out and don’t hear it saying that they’re landing on the wrong planet. Yeah … it’s so _awkward_, dropping in on a planet unexpectedly! Should have phoned ahead first… :smack: ☹ [Star Blecch, 'Mad Magazine' #115, December 1967, pp. 4-8 - Album on Imgur](http://imgur.com/gallery/QNfDT)😃🆒 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129.md?page=2)