# STII-Wrath of Khan: Did Khan have a legit gripe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 28, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129 "2015-08-28T01:33:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/41 "2015-08-28T03:15:49Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Been some years since I last saw the movie, but wasn’t “SS Botany Bay” stenciled on the walls of the habitat? :dubious: 😕 > [@msmith537](#): > > They might be some sort of shipping containers or something. [Tyrell specifically says they look like cargo containers](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbQXLCY_Scc) ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/42 "2015-08-28T03:16:41Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Khan recognizing Chekov is not a plot hole. Chekov never got an introductory episodes, so we don’t know when he joined the crew the way we know when, say, the traitor Ro Larren joined the E-D. There’s no real to think he didn’t graduate Starfleet Academy at 20 or so and was a night-shift officer on board the Enterprise during the first season. Except that in season 2 he didn’t know who Harry Mudd was.He must have arrived after Mudd’s Women, at least. Of course, it would have made a lot more sense if it had been Sulu that found Khan. ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/43 "2015-08-28T03:21:30Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > _Watch!_ Night _watch!_ :mad: Sergeant Detritus would have been perfect for the job. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/44 "2015-08-28T03:27:59Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Holy Zeus. YOU JUST INSULTED JANET KAGEN. Who the hell is Janet Kagen? 😕 Never heard of her. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/45 "2015-08-28T03:30:24Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Who the hell is Janet Kagen? 😕 Never heard of her. She wrote [Uhura’s Song](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uhura%27s_Song), which I enjoyed quite a bit. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/46 "2015-08-28T03:39:40Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Except that in season 2 he didn’t know who Harry Mudd was.He must have arrived after Mudd’s Women, at least. “Mudd’s Women” was episode no. 3 after the second pilot; “Space Seed” was number 24. So it is possible, though I personally have never cared for this explanation. > [@](#): > > Of course, it would have made a lot more sense if it had been Sulu that found Khan. Or was used to help introduce quadrotriticale, for that matter! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/47 "2015-08-28T03:40:50Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > She wrote [Uhura’s Song](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uhura%27s_Song), which I enjoyed quite a bit. Aha! I’ll give it a read. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/48 "2015-08-28T03:42:28Z")
> [@AncientHumanoid](#): > > Yep. Notice I said “looked like.” It’s a joke, ya Pakled! :dubious: Not to mention a remarkable resemblance! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/49 "2015-08-28T03:59:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Hey! They’re _real_ and they’re _spectacular!_ > > . . . In the DVD commentary, Nicholas Meyer says Montalban’s chest was real and he knew the audience would be wondering. My goodness! I’d heard the UL, and believed it because they look kinda fakish. I apologize to the shade of Ricardo Montalban, may he reside joyously in the Elysian Fields of film history! (It’s the plausible ULs that are the worst!) ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/50 "2015-08-28T04:04:24Z")
Now I realize they had no way of knowing this at the time but between TWOK and TSFS they got the ships backwards. The Grissom, a lightly-armed science vessel (that can be one-shotted by a Klingon scout ship) should have been looking for Genesis-worthy test planets. The Reliant, a heavily-armed patrol ship that can go toe-to-toe with a Constitution-class, should have been guarding Genesis. As for Khan I think Kirk did him a piece of mercy. The Federation is not particularly tolerant of augmented humans and has a habit of phasering them out of existence. I feel like Kirk’s actions in stranding Khan was actually a way of dropping the matter without the involvement of the Federation at large who probably would have said “it is the Captain’s discretion as to whether he should use a single torpedo or the full complement but we recommend a full complement for safety.” ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/51 "2015-08-28T04:09:58Z")
Also, obligatory while we are on this subject: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/HVELhUyLZGk/hqdefault.jpg "Cordoba - Ricardo Montalban") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVELhUyLZGk) ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/52 "2015-08-28T04:14:34Z")
Funny thing, Bobby from Taxi was on Babylon 5 And of course, we all remember Reverend Jim Klingontowski (TSFS) As for the OP, yeah, he kind of did get a bad deal. But he WAS a war criminal. His arrangement with Kirk was likely swept under the rug, more or less. Pity about MacGuyver’s great great granddaughter. (She changed her name to McGivers to join Starfleet) She did jeopardize the ship (and all of humanity, really), tho… ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/53 "2015-08-28T04:35:13Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Of course, it would have made a lot more sense if it had been Sulu that found Khan. > [@terentii](#): > > Or was used to help introduce quadrotriticale, for that matter! 😃 Yeah, but George Takei was off filming _The Green Berets_, so Walter Koenig got Takei’s lines in _The Trouble With Tribbles_. But yeah, it made sense for Sulu to know about the quadrotriticale since he was a botanical expert. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/54 "2015-08-28T04:40:21Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Yeah, but George Takei was off filming _The Green Berets_, so Walter Koenig got Takei’s lines in _The Trouble With Tribbles_. … And at that point they could rarely afford to have them both in the same episode, anyway. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/55 "2015-08-28T04:52:51Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Yeah, but George Takei was off filming _The Green Berets_, so Walter Koenig got Takei’s lines in _The Trouble With Tribbles_. Fun fact: Sulu was also supposed to be one of those taken captive in “Gamesters of Triskelion.” It would have been interesting to see him being seduced by the thrall with the orange hair… [![](https://zerode.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/star-trek-jane-ross-as-drill-thrall-tamoon-in-the-gamesters-of-triskellion.jpg) ](https://zerode.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/star-trek-jane-ross-as-drill-thrall-tamoon-in-the-gamesters-of-triskellion.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/56 "2015-08-28T11:10:55Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > \*\*\*AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!! \*\*\* :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: That’s better. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/57 "2015-08-28T11:44:06Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > I don’t think the hab sections were from the sleeper ship, just the belt buckle that Chekov reads and a few other things Khan and Co had on their person at the time they were shipped down to the planet. > [@msmith537](#): > > Not to mention the somewhat major plot point of the Reliant not realizing that the Seti Alpha system was missing one planet and the planet they thought they were on was in the wrong orbit. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Khan recognizing Chekov is not a plot hole. Chekov never got an introductory episodes, so we don’t know when he joined the crew the way we know when, say, the traitor Ro Larren joined the E-D. There’s no real to think he didn’t graduate Starfleet Academy at 20 or so and was a night-shift officer on board the Enterprise during the first season. Awfully convenient that Chekov remembered the name of Khan’s ship (for that dramatic moment when he realizes they’re in deep shit) but forgot which system they left Khan in (“Ceti Alpha? Nope, doesn’t ring a bell; let’s beam down.”). For that matter, you’d think Starfleet might have made some sort of record for ships going to Ceti Alpha to exercise a little extra caution. Just a notation on the map “there be megalomaniacs here”, something. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/58 "2015-08-28T11:55:07Z")
You are all missing the big question. Why did the spacesuits have a handle on the front? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/59 "2015-08-28T12:33:42Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Let’s face it: Virtually everyone who ever churned out a Trek novel was a talentless hack; why they continue to sell is beyond me! They’re not even on the same level as Vogon poetry! :mad: Hmm. It’s clear that you’re making a joke here. But, for the record, in the current case, be it noted that the novelization of **Star Trek II** (and of **Star Trek III** , as well) was Hugo award-winner Vonda McIntire. I thought she did a pretty decent job in a task that is frequently dismissed as trivial, fleshing things out quite a bit. (Other Trek novelization writers include award winners like Joe Haldeman, his brother Jack, and Theodore Cogswell. The award-winning writer and critic James Blish did the novelizations for the TV series. I’ll let you make some nasty remarks about Alan Dean Foster, though, if you want to. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/60 "2015-08-28T13:04:03Z")
@ the OP: I don’t think Khan had any reason to legitimately gripe about his and his people’s situation. Kirk basically said: “You wanna be a master race, with power over billions? Well, here you go: your very own world. It can sustain human life, here’s some starter supplies out of your ship, so go, be a leader of your people, and build the kind of society you want.” Khan and his people faced the same perils of natural disasters that the rest of humanity did in our “primitive” state. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129.md?page=4)