# STII-Wrath of Khan: Did Khan have a legit gripe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 28, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129 "2015-08-28T01:33:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/61 "2015-08-28T13:08:15Z")
My fanwank was always that Kirk filed the proper paperwork etc…and it was lost when Memory Alpha was wiped out. Furthermore…in the reboot movies…it’s absolutely pointless for Prime Spock to expect that without Vulcan, history will follow exactly as it did before. So rather than _hope_ somebody will stop the many galaxy destroying threats that the Enterprise stumbled upon, he debriefed Starfleet on where Khan was, Nomad, Lazarus, the Space Ameoba etc…\* …and Starfleet promptly locates Khan and tries to use him for their own nefarious deeds. \*The Doomsday Machine, what the Romulans are up to, the Metrons, where Gorn space actually ends…etc… ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/62 "2015-08-28T13:12:38Z")
Kirk vs, Khan would make a _hell_ of an episode of Judge Judy. I could see Khan wearing a Hawaiian shirt, open wide to the navel and showing his pecs. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/63 "2015-08-28T13:16:11Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > You are all missing the big question. Why did the spacesuits have a handle on the front? So you could lift them off the storage hooks/out of the storage locker. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/64 "2015-08-28T13:18:34Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Kirk vs, Khan would make a _hell_ of an episode of Judge Judy. > I could see Khan wearing a Hawaiian shirt, open wide to the navel and showing his pecs. “He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall _have_ him!” ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/65 "2015-08-28T13:27:46Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > My fanwank was always that Kirk filed the proper paperwork etc…and it was lost when Memory Alpha was wiped out. > > Furthermore…in the reboot movies…it’s absolutely pointless for Prime Spock to expect that without Vulcan, history will follow exactly as it did before. So rather than _hope_ somebody will stop the many galaxy destroying threats that the Enterprise stumbled upon, he debriefed Starfleet on where Khan was, Nomad, Lazarus, the Space Ameoba etc…\* > > …and Starfleet promptly locates Khan and tries to use him for their own nefarious deeds. > > \*The Doomsday Machine, what the Romulans are up to, the Metrons, where Gorn space actually ends…etc… When you find the Doomsday machine - get it to chase you to these coordinates near Bajor - send the doomsday machine thru the wormhole - trust me on this. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/66 "2015-08-28T13:44:41Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > For that matter, you’d think Starfleet might have made some sort of record for ships going to Ceti Alpha to exercise a little extra caution. Just a notation on the map “there be megalomaniacs here”, something. They did but “mostly harmless” didn’t work as well as they thought it would warning wise. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/67 "2015-08-28T13:49:23Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Furthermore…in the reboot movies…it’s absolutely pointless for Prime Spock to expect that without Vulcan, history will follow exactly as it did before. So rather than _hope_ somebody will stop the many galaxy destroying threats that the Enterprise stumbled upon, he debriefed Starfleet on where Khan was, Nomad, Lazarus, the Space Ameoba etc…\* But Spock-Prime took an _oath_ or something not to reveal stuff because reasons! Personally, I’d rather have had _no_ Nimoy cameo over the _stupid_ Nimoy cameo we got. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/68 "2015-08-28T13:50:33Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Kirk vs, Khan would make a _hell_ of an episode of Judge Judy. > I could see Khan wearing a Hawaiian shirt, open wide to the navel and showing his pecs. Addressing the baliff, “You are an excellent tactician sir. You get your judge to interrogate me, while you stand there, looking for weaknesses.” ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/69 "2015-08-28T13:52:30Z")
Speaking of the novels, let us not forget John M. Ford, whose “[How Much For Just the Planet?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Much_for_Just_the_Planet%3F)” gives Star Trek the seriousness and gravitas it deserves. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/70 "2015-08-28T13:52:30Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > But Spock-Prime took an _oath_ or something not to reveal stuff because reasons! > > Personally, I’d rather have had _no_ Nimoy cameo over the _stupid_ Nimoy cameo we got. I read that as he vowed not to interfere in Young Spock’s life, that he had his own destiny. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/71 "2015-08-28T14:11:21Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > As for Khan I think Kirk did him a piece of mercy. The Federation is not particularly tolerant of augmented humans and has a habit of phasering them out of existence. I feel like Kirk’s actions in stranding Khan was actually a way of dropping the matter without the involvement of the Federation at large who probably would have said “it is the Captain’s discretion as to whether he should use a single torpedo or the full complement but we recommend a full complement for safety.” So, “nuke them from orbit; it’s the only way to be sure?” ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/72 "2015-08-28T14:18:17Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > But Khan overplayed his grievance, so, tough toenails, gray-haired loonie with **prosthetic man-boobs** : die with a literary classic on your tongue…but just die. Point of clarification: not prosthetic. > [@Nicolas Meyer](#): > > Director Nicholas Meyer replied that even in his sixties Montalbán had a vigorous training regimen, was “one strong cookie,” and that his\*\* real chest was seen on film\*\*. Khan’s costume was specifically designed to display Montalbán’s physique. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/73 "2015-08-28T14:37:20Z")
I still regularly read Trek Fiction and its gotten a heck of a lot better now that the shows aren’t on the air anymore and the writers aren’t constrained to “put things back in the box when you’re done playing with them”. I’d make recommendations but your tastes and mine may differ to the point where you’d love the ones I didn’t even like and vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/74 "2015-08-28T14:43:15Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > The award-winning writer and critic James Blish did the novelizations for the TV series. I have to say, even big fan that I am, some of Blish’s TOS adaptations were the definition of hack. It’s obvious he wrote them using only early draft scripts. Characters have different names, plots go in different directions, etc. Some bear little resemblance to the episode - one even (can’t remember which offhand) reduced an entire episode to a three page short story. If I were writing episode adaptations, I’d put the effort into watching the actual episode and adjusting the writing as required before submitting it. At least\* try \*to do a good job. Put in some effort. It seems like he didn’t even care, like he banged out a book in one afternoon. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/75 "2015-08-28T14:55:43Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Kirk vs, Khan would make a _hell_ of an episode of Judge Judy. > I could see Khan wearing a Hawaiian shirt, open wide to the navel and showing his pecs. So, basically, Duane “Dog the Bounty Hunter” Chapman? > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Don’t make me shove this eel-worm in your ear. How do you get “eel-worm” from [this](http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=wrath+of+Khan+creature&view=detailv2&&id=14DFEBDAF579605FF0291A1730CDE4E7C7E7EE22&selectedIndex=12&ccid=R6%2bJ8HgU&simid=608013305031363560&thid=JN.Fo6dVTOcE2vEP34%2fcSA6Lg&ajaxhist=0)? It makes me think you don’t know what an eel is. or a worm. or both. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/76 "2015-08-28T15:14:27Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Not to mention the somewhat major plot point of the Reliant not realizing that the Seti Alpha system was missing one planet and the planet they thought they were on was in the wrong orbit. I thought they knew that one of the planets in the system exploded, but just thought that it was the wrong one - just a mix-up between which one was Ceti Alpha V and which one was Ceti Alpha VI… and presumably a mix-up on which one had Khan on it. Is there any support for that in the movie, or am I just making it up? (I haven’t seen the movie in a long time.) ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/77 "2015-08-28T15:35:25Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > I thought they knew that one of the planets in the system exploded, but just thought that it was the wrong one - just a mix-up between which one was Ceti Alpha V and which one was Ceti Alpha VI… and presumably a mix-up on which one had Khan on it. > > Is there any support for that in the movie, or am I just making it up? (I haven’t seen the movie in a long time.) I don’t think any of that is in the movie (maybe in the novelization?). FWIW, I have always thought it was stupid that the Reliant didn’t know where they were. Meyer was styling the film after Horatio Hornblower novels, but there is a difference between islands in the Pacific and star systems. One would hope that Starfleet navigation was a bit more precise, and their record keeping a bit more exact, than seen in the movie. If they were looking for a planet that was completely devoid of life, they probably should start with ones that don’t have atmospheres. Talk about lazy - Tyrell and Checkov couldn’t _wait_ to “transplant” whatever was living on the planet, rather than moving on. If they took their job a bit more seriously, Khan would still be stuck on his rock, and Spock and David would still be alive. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/78 "2015-08-28T15:38:30Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Bingo. **The Tooth** is incisive. Yes, Khan is right: they left him in an unstable solar system, and never came back to check. They didn’t even leave a monitoring satellite to watch to make sure he didn’t break out and cause trouble. So they fucked up twice: they blew their duty to him, and they blew their duty to the Federation. > > But Khan overplayed his grievance, so, tough toenails, gray-haired loonie with prosthetic man-boobs: die with a literary classic on your tongue…but just die. His chest was REAL goddamnit! ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/79 "2015-08-28T16:52:38Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I don’t think any of that is in the movie (maybe in the novelization?). It was trimmed out of the first meeting with Khan. A few hints are still there, like Chekovs opening log entry naming the planet (incorrectly), his statement about how “On Ceti Alpha V there was life, a chance” and Khans realization, “You thought this was Ceti Alpha VI.” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129/80 "2015-08-28T16:58:42Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I have to say, even big fan that I am, some of Blish’s TOS adaptations were the definition of hack. It’s obvious he wrote them using only early draft scripts. Characters have different names, plots go in different directions, etc. Some bear little resemblance to the episode - one even (can’t remember which offhand) reduced an entire episode to a three page short story. > > If I were writing episode adaptations, I’d put the effort into watching the actual episode and adjusting the writing as required before submitting it. At least\* try \*to do a good job. Put in some effort. It seems like he didn’t even care, like he banged out a book in one afternoon. Clearly the contract said to put lots of episodes into each book. The first two volumes were pretty good, as he tried to explain stuff (and even put the Vegan Tyranny into one.) Then he pretty much figured they would sell no matter what, so the last bunch were hackwork. I think he was getting sick also. The novel wasn’t bad though. A lot better than the Mack Reynolds travesty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stii-wrath-of-khan-did-khan-have-a-legit-gripe/729129.md?page=5)