# Still no WMDs found in Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 21, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027 "2003-04-21T13:44:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/1 "2003-04-21T13:44:42Z")
The military has been over there almost four weeks now. Where the hell are the WMDs? What the heck have they been _doing_ all this time? How hard can it be? All you have to do is search every square foot of Iraq. The place is not infinitely large, after all. It’s only 171,599 square miles, so it’s a matter of simple division to determine how many people you’ll need to stand shoulder to shoulder and finish the job in, say, a day or two. Just give each person a shovel and let them dig, oh, a few hundred feet. The only other thing you have to do is make sure every person is honest and no one is moving vials and canisters around secretly. What’s the problem? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/2 "2003-04-21T13:50:40Z")
Lib, the US and UK governments started a war on the basis that there were WMDs in Iraq. The burden is on them to prove it, and that burden is not mitigated by the difficulty they might have in doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/3 "2003-04-21T13:58:30Z")
**Lib** , maybe you can help me out in understanding this. If there are, or were, WOMD, why were they not used. I mean, if you’re not going to use them against an invading army, why have them at all? And the alleged scientist who worked in the WOMD program (I’m not saying he’s lying, I just don’t know yet), he says they destroyed them days before the war. Then buried the materials. Destroyed them days before the war? Why? I mean, why _then_. when you need them most. And why bury the materials? Did they think they’d be able to go back and retrieve them? Did they not think we were going to round them all up? Again, maybe I’m just thinking like a westerner. But if someone was invading _us_, we’d throw put-near everything we had at them. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/4 "2003-04-21T14:12:27Z")
The **OP** makes _Hans Blix Cry_.:o ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/5 "2003-04-21T14:19:22Z")
My theory is that at the beginning of the war, the WOMD were all hastily gathered up and stashed in a warehouse somewhere on the outskirts of Industrial Baghdad, and that they’ll turn up in about six months, when things are back to normal and people have time to spare from the problem of “survival with no water or electricty” and turn their attention to their warehouses. And of course there will be no paper trail to show who put the WOMD there, but by then nobody will care. Six months is _such_ a long time in the American public’s attention span. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/6 "2003-04-21T14:31:00Z")
But it’ll make a great campaign issue. 8 months to the primaries! Whee!!! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/7 "2003-04-21T14:39:51Z")
Here’s an excerpt from [today’s William Raspberry column](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64680-2003Apr20.html): > [@](#): > > I keep going back to that February day when Colin Powell [told]…the U.N. Security Council, you see the chemical and biological labs at one of the production sites. And here, you notice, the trucks are gone – just hours before the U.N. inspectors are due on the scene. Here are the time-lapse photographs, taken by satellite and spy planes, showing the bulldozed-over locations where the WMD plants used to be. The question being, if we could track Iraq’s bio/chem weapons that well without even _being_ in Iraq, isn’t the US government running out of excuses for why it can’t find them on the ground, when it could spy them well enough from the air? ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/8 "2003-04-21T14:56:23Z")
I guess Bush was right when he said the ONLY use for such weapons was offensive. I mean, Saddam had all these nasty weapons, and didn’t use them defensively when faced with the overthrow of his regime. I guess we SHOULD invade N Korea now, as they would certainly never use their offensive weapons of terror when under attack! Read this morning about Bush’s re-election campaign. The slogan was something like “Keep Rolling.” Made me sick. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/9 "2003-04-21T15:06:02Z")
They couldn’t have gotten rid of them if they weren’t there. ---
**Author:** ![Tony\_Montana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@Tony\_Montana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tony_Montana)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/10 "2003-04-21T15:08:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\*Again, maybe I’m just thinking like a westerner. But if someone was invading _us_, we’d throw put-near everything we had at them. \*\* Throw put-near? Not on our own turf. WOMD on their own turf would hurt them (possibly more) also. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/11 "2003-04-21T15:10:48Z")
Try checking out this morning’s [New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/21/international/worldspecial/21CHEM.html) front page article on the subject. A few quotes: > [@](#): > > A scientist who claims to have worked in Iraq’s chemical weapons program for more than a decade has told an American military team that Iraq destroyed chemical weapons and biological warfare equipment only days before the war began, members of the team said. > > They said the scientist led Americans to a supply of material that proved to be the building blocks of illegal weapons, which he claimed to have buried as evidence of Iraq’s illicit weapons programs. > [@](#): > > …they considered him credible and that the material unearthed over the last three days at sites to which he led them had proved to be precursors for a toxic agent that is banned by chemical weapons treaties. > [@](#): > > …the Pentagon-led teams, which include specialists from several Pentagon agencies, have been hampered by a lack of resources and by geography. > > Because the task force has two expensive, highly sophisticated, transportable labs in which chemical and germ samples can be analyzed quickly, it was kept at a safe distance from fighting at a desert camp in Kuwait, just across the Iraqi border. > > Unable to move their task force closer to Baghdad, where most of the suspect sites and scientists who worked in them are situated, the mobile exploitation teams have had to rely on scarce helicopters to travel to suspect sites in the Baghdad area. Until recently, these were reserved mainly for soldiers going to battle. As a result, most of the teams had done almost no weapons hunting until the fighting had largely concluded. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/12 "2003-04-21T15:13:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dinsdale \* > \*\*I guess Bush was right when he said the ONLY use for such weapons was offensive. > > I mean, Saddam had all these nasty weapons, and didn’t use them defensively when faced with the overthrow of his regime. > > \*\* Maybe, just maybe people were right when they said the only use for such weapons was offensive. If they had been used, say, on the outskirts of Baghdad, it’s just as likely the winds would have blown them back into the city. Actually, such “weapons” as chemical & biological agents are really not much good for either offensive or defensive purposes for that very reason. What they are good for is terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/13 "2003-04-21T15:17:20Z")
[Sounds like Saddam–surprise–pulled several fast ones on us.](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=68&ncid=68&e=3&u=/nyt/20030421/ts_nyt/illicit_arms_kept_till_eve_of_war__an_iraqi_scientist_is_said_to_assert) I’ll be following this story with interest. This is a much better lead than a positive chemical test at a pesticide factory, for example. Or, what **MLS** said. :smack: You people are too farging fast…:o ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/14 "2003-04-21T15:27:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*[Sounds like Saddam–surprise–pulled several fast ones on us.](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=68&ncid=68&e=3&u=/nyt/20030421/ts_nyt/illicit_arms_kept_till_eve_of_war__an_iraqi_scientist_is_said_to_assert) I’ll be following this story with interest. This is a much better lead than a positive chemical test at a pesticide factory, for example. > > Or, what **MLS** said. :smack: You people are too farging fast…:o \*\* Beat you by 4 entire minutes! Seriously, I’m glad to see that someone else also says it’s worth following as opposed to discounting it immediately or pouncing on it as proof positive. The NYT is usually fairly liberal politically and is also fairly conservative when it comes to reporting rumors and unsubstantiated guesses; it would be uncharacteristic for them to be either going out of their way to support the current administration or basing a front-page article on poorly-supported evidence. But it is still not confirmed officially, and Maj. Gen. David Petraeus, commander of the 101st Airborne Division is quoted as saying > [@](#): > > “What they’ve discovered could prove to be of incalculable value. Though much work must still be done to validate the information MET Alpha has uncovered, if it proves out it will clearly be one of the major discoveries of this operation, and it may be the major discovery.” There are a lot of “ifs” remaining and it would not be the first time a lead did not pan out. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/15 "2003-04-21T15:39:24Z")
> [@](#): > > The Americans said the scientist told them that President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s government had destroyed some stockpiles of deadly agents as early as the mid-1990’s, transferred others to Syria, and had recently focused its efforts instead on research and development projects that are virtually impervious to detection by international inspectors, and even American forces on the ground combing through Iraq’s giant weapons plants… > > …The officials quoted him as saying he had watched several months before the outbreak of the war as Iraqis buried chemical precursors and other sensitive material to conceal and preserve them for future use. The officials said the scientist showed them documents, samples, and other evidence of the program that he claimed to have stolen to prove that the program existed… ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/16 "2003-04-21T15:44:08Z")
Double :smack: That was the same NYT article by Judith Miller, NOT AP as I said in my previous post. Anyway, I read [this](http://www.msnbc.com/news/903014.asp?0cv=CB10) also. Thus my confusion–beyond the usual anyway… > [@](#): > > The Iraqi scientist, who was not named for fear he might be harmed, also said Iraq has secretly sent stockpiles of deadly agents and weapons technology to Syria in the mid-1990s, and more recently was cooperating with Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaida terror network. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/17 "2003-04-21T16:08:22Z")
Triple :smack:, This is the [AP](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030421/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_chemical_weapons) article. First, I quoted the NYT, as did MLS. Next I quoted MSNBC. Last, AP. Seriously. This time I mean it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/18 "2003-04-21T16:28:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*Here’s an excerpt from [today’s William Raspberry column](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64680-2003Apr20.html): The question being, if we could track Iraq’s bio/chem weapons that well without even _being_ in Iraq, isn’t the US government running out of excuses for why it can’t find them on the ground, when it could spy them well enough from the air? \*\* This argument confuses me. We have pictures of trucks on the sites loading up the gear \* in order to hide them \*. In other words – we knew where they were and the Iraqis had plenty of warning that inspections were coming and moved the stuff. So why is it surprising that we are having trouble finding where they hid it? I think that people employing the argument that “we have satellites so we must know where they put the stuff” are greatly overestimating what one can learn by satellite survelliance – especially when satellite coverage is a) intermittent, b) obscured by weather and darkness, c) can’t easily track moving objects (field of view is sharply limited) and d) time of passage of satellites is often known to the people on the ground who can time their movements to avoid them. Yes-- aerial surveillance can spot people loading up trucks and getting out of Dodge the day before inspections are scheduled. If this happens often enough, it presents a reasonable supposition that the people being observed have something to hide. But laws of physics and optics prevent us from actually following those trucks and figuring out where they are being taken, nor can we examine the contents of these trucks in any detail. Consider (among other things) that the greater the magnification of a scene, the smaller the field of view. So it’s possible to get high resolution pictures of a small area – maybe even good enough to identify individual vehicles. But to get this resolution, you have to focus in on a very small area. Now think how big Iraq is. You can’t take high resolution pictures of the entire country every single minute of every day, hoping to catch something interesting. I imagine that you have to have other intelligence assets telling you where to direct the cameras for maximum benefit. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/19 "2003-04-21T18:51:23Z")
I follow your argument to some extent, **Finagle**. But it seems to me that if we could find thirty-some bio/chem weapons sites last fall and winter, then we ought to be able to find _one_ now, by one means or another. Our intelligence sources that told our cameras where to look can’t have all gotten killed in the war, and those that survived would certainly have an easier time of updating us on where the yucky stuff is. Not to mention, they’ve had a month with other priorities besides hiding such weapons, like trying to repel an invasion. From the NYTimes article: > [@](#): > > he has given the Americans information about other unconventional weapons activities, they said, as well as information about Iraqi weapons cooperation with Syria, and with terrorist groups, including Al Qaeda. _It was not clear how the scientist knew of such a connection._ We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027/20 "2003-04-21T19:14:27Z")
On the bright side, if we never find any, it means we didn’t plant any. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-no-wmds-found-in-iraq/170027.md?page=2)