# Still support nuke power plants? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647 "2011-03-14T11:56:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/201 "2011-03-16T04:18:58Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [People Died at Three Mile Island | HuffPost Impact](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/harvey-wasserman/people-died-at-three-mile_b_179588.html) Of course I do. But nuke fans reject anything that is negative. When Mr. Wasserman has some evidence to support his claim that TMI resulted in deaths, let me know. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/202 "2011-03-16T04:21:21Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > you do not want to see the less supported effects that alarmists outside of science or with less support are claiming the high end could be. But I guess I will have to mention an example of what is an alarmist to put things in perspective. James Lovelock, that one of the Gaia Hypothesis, claims that we are headed to 8 or more degrees in temperature rise and that we will have to move to the poles to survive, not before billions of people die. Of course he is put almost in the same discredited area as deniers are by the serious researchers. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/203 "2011-03-16T04:22:12Z")
> [@matt](#): > > Well the 90% figure was from a “Harold Denton” according to the NYTimes article, and was disputed. The rest of the article was mostly taken from the 1972 Hanauer memo, which the NYTimes was good enough to provide a link to: > > [http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blogs/greeninc/hanauer.pdf](http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blogs/greeninc/hanauer.pdf) > > I suggest you read it. Hanauer’s concerns was with the use of small containments with a large volume water pool at the bottom. The thinking behind these containments was that in the event of the high-pressure steam system failing, the steam gushing into the containment would condense on contact with the cold water and keep the pressure down. Hanauer argued that the “pressure suppression pool” might not be able to compensate for a really fast steam escape and the small volume of the containment would cause the pressure to rise really fast. (worst case model for the containment was a “double guillotine fracture” in a steam pipe, i.e. the equivalent of a section of steam pipe vanishing leaving two full-bore open pipe ends.) He also wasn’t happy about the reliability record of safety valves. His conclusion wasn’t a condemnation of the design or a “whistleblow” however. Instead it was a recommendation to phase pressure-suppressing designs out in favour of brute force, large-heavy-containment dry designs. Short of having a nuclear plant engineer stand next to me it’s impossible to weigh in on Harold Denton’s reasoning. However, I’m looking at 4 reactors and all 4 of them are in trouble. 1 of them has a breach in the inner core. It could be a fluke but his estimate of 90% was in the ballpark. I would expect multiple redundancy and these reactors only had the backup generators to help them. Jesus, if you look at the chain of volcanoes in Google Earth it draws a line straight through Japan. I’d love a plate tectonics person to weigh in on what the effect of an 8 foot shift means to the other side of the Pacific Rim. That rubber band in California has got to be stretched pretty tight. I don’t think it’s an accident that there have been major activity all along the Asian side. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/204 "2011-03-16T04:25:25Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Tell the Japanese ,the people at Chernobyl ,the people at 3 mile island and the people around the Fermi plant in Detroit , that nuclear power is fine. What is it, they are safe until 50 percent of them blow up? At what point do you question? Probably none. Even after the disaster and the fall of communism (That the disaster also helped cause) Russia continues with its nuclear program. Also the Japanese knew about Chernobyl, and still saw a need to continue. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/205 "2011-03-16T04:29:57Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Tell the Japanese ,the people at Chernobyl ,the people at 3 mile island and the people around the Fermi plant in Detroit , that nuclear power is fine. What is it, they are safe until 50 percent of them blow up? At what point do you question? Probably none. Read the thread. We are questioning the design. Do you think every car and airplane design is equal? Do you think every coal plant design is equal? The last nuclear plant built in my state turned into a coal plant with magic pixie dust because they fucked it all up. It was just cheaper to build a coal plant. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/206 "2011-03-16T04:32:31Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > Yeah. We have to at least utilize nuclear to get us to whatever the ultimate technology is for clean and safe power. This. Put me down as still in favor of nuclear power. But I admit it squidges me out a little, and I agree with the comment above. Once you start looking at the cold hard facts of nuke power and leave the emotionalism aside, nuke doesn’t really look all that bad overall. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/207 "2011-03-16T04:35:08Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Even after the disaster and the fall of communism (That the disaster also helped cause) Russia continues with its nuclear program. > > Also the Japanese knew about Chernobyl, and still saw a need to continue. Yes. When you’re a little country without coal reserves and you want to gain some energy independence then nuclear power was Japan’s only real option. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/208 "2011-03-16T04:50:49Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Tell the Japanese ,the people at Chernobyl ,the people at 3 mile island and the people around the Fermi plant in Detroit , that nuclear power is fine. What is it, they are safe until 50 percent of them blow up? At what point do you question? Probably none. Gonzo in a discussion you are supposed to respond to people who respond to you. When you get barraged by relevant questions that you have no clue how to answer it may be time to sit back and learn for awhile instead of trying to teach by repeating the same knowledge and logic challenged posits. You should take the time to learn the positions of intelligent people who disagree with you instead. There is no one in this discussion who does not understand your (incredibly poorly thought out) position. ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/209 "2011-03-16T05:08:41Z")
I’ve just been watching English-language Japanese news on: [http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv](http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv) Apparently the workers’ evacuation order was lifted an hour after it was given. No confirmation anywhere else yet. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/210 "2011-03-16T05:23:46Z")
MSNBC confirmed that a few hours ago. Problem is that the confirmation is buried in an update of the “workers evacuated” article. I’m beginning to wonder, could the alarmist headlines there and elsewhere will be left up because that way they attract more eyeballs? Nah, it can not be. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/211 "2011-03-16T05:33:11Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Ah… > > I should have known better than to try to bring some facts to the table. The fault is mine, really, for trying. I, too, would like to thank you for trying. I, for one, appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/212 "2011-03-16T05:45:39Z")
Yo, **gonzo** , does [post 199](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13577260&postcount=199) sway you in the slightest? You realize we will never, never, ever be able to convince the masses to give up power, even if their neighbors were burning to death in a nuclear reactor core catcher. Not all of them. Not enough of them. Do you really want to give up on nuclear? Would it matter if I proved to you that their is no way in hell that we could switch over to renewables in the next 50 years? Really, does [post 199](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13577260&postcount=199) have no impact on your stance here? ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/213 "2011-03-16T06:15:46Z")
The people who really believe in nuclear power, who support it, they need to go stage a protest outside the Japanese power plant. Right now. Defend your nuclear plant! Show the world how safe it is. Oh don’t worry about that 30K evacuation zone. A protest at the edge of the zone would still be effective. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/214 "2011-03-16T06:27:50Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > The people who really believe in nuclear power, who support it, they need to go stage a protest outside the Japanese power plant. Right now. Defend your nuclear plant! Show the world how safe it is. > > Oh don’t worry about that 30K evacuation zone. A protest at the edge of the zone would still be effective. Then you should be posting from the bottom of a structurally compromised coal mine. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/215 "2011-03-16T06:40:03Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Still support nuke power plants? Yes. The need for nuclear power plants comes from _your_ (and everyone else’s) appetite for unlimited cheap energy. If _you_ (and everyone else) was smart enough to support sustainable energy and even a more sensible energy policy for industrialized societies, the nuke plants would not have been necessary. But, noooo… you want your pizza delivered in 30 minutes, like any other glutton on the planet that also doesn’t think they should bother to vote, so they let politicians leverage this level of environmental destruction for their own benefit. The nuke plants are not at fault. _You_ are… (and everyone else). ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/216 "2011-03-16T06:40:42Z")
I do not believe in coal. Nor use it in any way. Coal is bad. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/217 "2011-03-16T06:53:20Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > I do not believe in coal. Nor use it in any way. Coal is bad. By opposing nuclear you support coal. ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/218 "2011-03-16T07:29:38Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > MSNBC confirmed that a few hours ago. > > Problem is that the confirmation is buried in an update of the “workers evacuated” article. > > I’m beginning to wonder, could the alarmist headlines there and elsewhere will be left up because that way they attract more eyeballs? Nah, it can not be. :dubious: Thanks. Found it. [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42084187/ns/world\_news-asiapacific/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42084187/ns/world_news-asiapacific/) > [@](#): > > Short of having a nuclear plant engineer stand next to me it’s impossible to weigh in on Harold Denton’s reasoning. However, I’m looking at 4 reactors and all 4 of them are in trouble. 1 of them has a breach in the inner core. It could be a fluke but his estimate of 90% was in the ballpark. Well I’d say 3 out 3 _reactors_ are having trouble, since reactor 4 was shut down (and probably empty of fuel) when the earthquake hit. The building of reactor 4 has had an upper level fire which may have spread radiation from the spent fuel pools, but events at reactor 4 have little to do with Denton’s comments. The three reactors that are in trouble are having issues with removing the residual energy from their shut-down cores. That’s it. Denton’s claim was allegedly that containment failure was 90% likely in an accident. The context and exact nature of his claim wasn’t presented, but I doubt he was talking about steam being periodically vented from intact containments, which is what has been happening at reactors 1-3. Do you have a cite for a breach of an “inner core”, which I presume means the pressure vessel? ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/219 "2011-03-16T08:09:38Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > What really kinda freaks me out about the whole ‘nuclear is gonna kill us ALL!’ folks is that they apparently cannot understand relative safety. What happened to the Japanese plants is bad. However, over their 40 year lifespan this is the worst that has happened by far. If you tally up the deaths from a coal fired plant over 40 years due to pollution and other related issues, it is gonna be clear that the coal plant will have killed or injured way more than a nuke plant. Yet the anti-nuke folks can’t quite seem to grasp this. > > Slee I think they grasp it just fine, it never was about the technology, it was the lifestyle that nuclear can support. The original contention was that atomically created electricity would be plentiful and would only be billed in small increments, just to say its billed or something like that. Now we have folks saying , no, electricity is a commodity and pay per play. Increase the amount of nuke plants and sooner or later your going to have a surplus of electricity and rates would be marginal. In their eyes, this is bad. So between the suits who want to make everything a comodity and a combination of nimbys and the salad folks, its been almost impossible to decom existing plants and build newer designs in a cyclic manner. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/220 "2011-03-16T08:27:03Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > By opposing nuclear you support coal. Exactly. The vast majority of people are not going to give up the benefits of modern industrial society, and that society takes lots of energy to sustain. Which at this point gives us the choice between coal or nuclear. The alternatives aren’t up to the job. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647.md?page=12)