# Still support nuke power plants? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647 "2011-03-14T11:56:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/361 "2011-03-18T17:16:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > **gonzo** , let me put this in terms you can understand: nuclear power _might_ kill some of us. Fossil fuels will eventually kill _all_ of us. That’s a bit melodramatic, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/362 "2011-03-18T17:29:57Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > What a weird conclusion. the reactors used in Japan are all over the world. We have 25 of them in America. Yes, but the ones of that sort we have in the US have been upgraded and additional safety measures installed that the Japanese plants lacked. > [@](#): > > Workers are dying fighting the blazes. Actually, we do not know that for a fact. The estimated amount of radiation people have been exposed to varies enormously depending on who you ask. Really, only a dosimeter worn by workers can give that information. > [@](#): > > The fire in reactor 3 and 4 are spent fuel rods. That is radioactive waste with no place to go. These rods are sitting in pools around the world at nearly every nuke plant. > I do not get all warm and fuzzy over that. Well, maybe if the NIMBY’s had gotten “warm and fuzzy” over the Yucca Mountain storage facility instead of killing it we would have a place to put that crap other than on plant grounds. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/363 "2011-03-18T17:34:28Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Well, maybe if the NIMBY’s had gotten “warm and fuzzy” over the Yucca Mountain storage facility instead of killing it we would have a place to put that crap other than on plant grounds. Not quite. Spent fuel rods must be actively cooled in spent fuel rod pools for quite some time before they’re safe enough to be transported and stored in Yucca, or Canada, or wherever. There’re always going to be spent, but very hot and dangerous, fuel rods laying around on nuclear plant sites. ---
**Author:** ![just\_some\_guy5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@just\_some\_guy5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/just_some_guy5)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/364 "2011-03-18T17:58:07Z")
“The fire in reactor 3 and 4 are spent fuel rods. That is radioactive waste with no place to go.” Has this actually been confirmed? I realize we’re all a bit short on concrete information at this point, but last I heard the RNC was no longer repeating its claim regarding the lack of water for those spent fuel rods. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/365 "2011-03-18T18:39:56Z")
> [@just\_some\_guy5](#): > > “The fire in reactor 3 and 4 are spent fuel rods. That is radioactive waste with no place to go.” > > Has this actually been confirmed? I realize we’re all a bit short on concrete information at this point, but last I heard the RNC was no longer repeating its claim regarding the lack of water for those spent fuel rods. Why do you think they are desperately helicoptering water on them.? One of the fuel rod tanks contains plutonium. That would be a terrible disaster if it blew up spreading the plutonium particles. Plutonium is 100 percent in causing lung cancer if ingested in microscopic amounts. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/366 "2011-03-18T19:35:56Z")
I just got the following in email from my father. > [@](#): > > I don’t know where the guy who wrote this got his information, but it seems reasonable based on what I have heard and my knowledge of reactors and Japanese reactor safety. Dad. > > Reactor Reality > > It’s not pretty. > > Neither, however, does even the worst case approximate the hysteria generated on television screens. It’s easy to strike chords with words like “meltdown” and “radiation.” Major media, including the specialized financial variety, in fact are framing coverage as a simple choice between two outcomes, “Three Mile Island” or “Chernobyl.” > > These easy references connect with viewers but they do little to inform. > > The 1979 incident at the Three Mile Island Nuclear Generating Station near Harrisburg, Pa., was a partial core meltdown caused by a faulty valve, instrument failure and human error. There was never any threat to the power system that supplied the cooling system, or, for that matter, to the ability of responders to cool the reactor. > > About half the core melted, and the cladding around 90 percent of the fuel rods failed. Five feet of the core of Unit 4 were eaten as around 20 tons of uranium flowed to the bottom head of the pressure vessel to form a mass of corium. The reactor vessel, the second level of containment, held up, containing the damaged fuel with nearly all of the radioactive isotopes in the core. > > The Kemeny Commission reported in October 1979 that a maximum of 13 million curies of radioactive but relatively harmless noble gases were released. Only 13 to 17 curies of cancer-causing iodine-131 were released. Total releases were a relatively small proportion of the radioactive material in the reactor. > > For myriad reasons Fukushima-Daiichi has surpassed Three Mile Island in terms of scale. But is the public sensibility served by repeated invocations of Chernobyl? > > The most definitive comments by a Western official have come from John Beddington, the chief scientific officer for the UK government, during a teleconference with personnel at the British Embassy in Tokyo on Wednesday. According to Bennington, even a worst-case chain of events–one that leads to a reactor explosion–would only affect a 30 kilometer radius around the plant. > > The blow-off explosion at Chernobyl Unit 4–a release of energy and radioactive material under extreme pressure that followed an earlier hydrogen blast–caused radioactive material to shoot high into the atmosphere. And it exposed graphite moderator components of the reactor to air, causing them to ignite. > > The resulting convection sent a plume of radioactive fallout higher and higher–up to 30,000 feet–and thus an even more extensive area, including Pripyat, Ukraine, the town nearest the Chernobyl reactor, the western Soviet Union, Eastern Europe, Western Europe and Northern Europe. It burned for 15 days afterward, until May 10, 1986. > > It’s critical to keep in mind that Chernobyl Unit 4 wasn’t enclosed by any kind of hard containment vessel. > > At Fukushima-Daiichi control rods were deployed correctly and did stop reactions between fuel rods. But stopping the reactions isn’t the end of the game; the fuel rods remain extremely hot post-reaction and must be cooled. That means they must be constantly submerged. Under normal circumstances the cooling process involves a constant stream of water, which becomes steam until the rods are sufficiently cooled. This steam is ordinarily pulled off to run the turbines that generate electricity, and more replacement water is pumped in. > > Eventual loss of power after the earthquake and tsunami interrupted the water-steam-water cycle, resulting in an accumulation of pressure that had to be relieved. This radioactive steam has been vented, and workers have been cooling the reactors with seawater. But this water initially boiled off faster than it could be replaced. Exposure to air caused the casings of the hot fuel rods to crack, releasing radioactive elements and hydrogen, the escape of which is likely the cause of the explosions reported over the last several days. There is no confirmation that uranium fuel has melted. > > Units 1 and 3 were relatively stable as of Wednesday morning in Japan. > > Workers have been combating a fire in Unit 4, but the reactor was in a 105-day-long maintenance outage at the time of the earthquake and contained no fuel. As of 7:45 am Mar. 16, Japan Standard Time (JST, 4:45 pm Eastern Daylight Time Mar. 15) the fire, which wasn’t in the spent fuel pool, as was reported by several media outlets, had been extinguished. > > There were reports early Wednesday morning of “loud noises” coming from Unit 2, which is the focus of greatest concern right now. These reports were shortly followed by confirmation from the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA). Although it didn’t say the sounds were explosions, NISA noted that “the suppression chamber may be damaged.” The suppression chamber holds water and steam released from the reactor core. > > Radiation levels on the edge of the plant compound briefly spiked but quickly fell. The water level inside the Unit 2 reactor was measured at 1.7 meters below the top of the fuel rods Wednesday afternoon but was rising as workers pumped seawater into it. > > Radiation in the immediate vicinity of the reactors is harmful to human health at current levels. But it’s crucial to note a few more key points. Japan suffered an earthquake and tsunami of unprecedented proportion that have caused historic damage to every part of their infrastructure and the deaths of thousands of people. > > The 24-hour news cycle is riding the “nuclear accident” story, despite the fact that is was no accident, in the Three Mile Island or Chernobyl sense; it was the result of an unprecedented natural disaster, and the fact that matters haven’t gone critical radiation-wise already testifies to the advancements we’ve made in nuclear technology. In fact the efforts of plant workers will likely mean there’s very little harm to anyone but themselves. > > The worst-case scenario for Fukushima-Daiichi is that all attempts at cooling the reactors fail. A buildup of pressure caused by the interaction of hot radioactive material with the containment floor would cause an explosion. But this explosion would reach a height of about 500 meters, containing any dangerous material within the already established 20 to 30 kilometer exclusion zone around the plant. > > Reported levels of radiation in Tokyo are relatively trivial; levels would need to increase by hundreds of times current levels to cause problems. Acceptable levels of radiation are based on the most susceptible members of society (children and pregnant mothers). Right now levels outside the 30 kilometer exclusion zone are fine for all members of society. > > The US aircraft carrier USS George Washington, stationed at Yokosuka Naval Base near Tokyo, measured “very low levels” of airborne radiation carried by northeast winds from Fukushima-Daiichi, 200 miles away. A level of around 0.5 millirems of radiation was detected at Yokosuka. That’s about 50 times levels that occur in nature, according to Masaharu Hoshi, professor of radiation physics at the Research Institute of Radiation Biology and Medicine of the University of Hiroshima. > > Professor Hoshi, whose academic study focuses on exposure cases from and the histories of Chernobyl, Semipalatinsk, a nuclear test site in Kazakhstan that closed in 1991, and Hiroshima and Nagasaki, told Stars & Stripes that “the level detected…is not a level that immediately causes health hazards,” adding, “I would say not to worry. Even at Chernobyl, there were only 20 or so people who had direct effect and died of thyroid gland cancer,” he said. “The major problem is psychological, the fear of harmful effect that people might harbor.” A little background. My father ran a nuclear reactor safety division at a national lab for about 25 years or so. He was at TMI\*. He also ran this [test](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZjhxuhTmGk), which I believe was contracted out by the Japanese. He knows a great deal about nuclear safety and the Japanese plants. As far as I can tell, when my Dad was working he was in the top 3 or 4 in the world in the field\*\*. Slee - He was there the day after the TMI accident. The V.P. called my house and asked for him. A little while later he was asked to head the clean up of TMI. He turned it down because it wasn’t research, which he prefered. \*\*My Dad is a very smart guy. He is also pretty cautious about certain things. At one point my Dad made the statement that he was in the top 10 or 12 in the world when it came to nuclear reactor safety. I also know that his multiplier is 3 because he errs on the side of caution and always leaves room for error or incomplete information. So I figure the actual number was 3 or 4. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/367 "2011-03-18T19:51:12Z")
Thanks for that info Sleestak. Interesting read. Oh yeah, Sleestaks were some of my favorite lame Sci Fi bad guys. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/368 "2011-03-18T19:52:37Z")
Thanks for that **sleestak** , we may had locked horns in the past before, but I really do thank you for that. Like I mentioned in the Pit thread, I’m getting the sensation that many alarmists are assuming we can not see the burning theater, we are, and this is the only time where is ok to yell fire in a crowded one. The problem is that many, that are in reality pushing an agenda, are going to the level of reporting on dubious information were the sources are doing the equivalent of telling the public that besides the fire, the emergency exit doors are locked. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/369 "2011-03-18T20:03:32Z")
Oh, forgot to mention something that TMI reminded me of. Did a crude back of the envelope calculation once. The result was something like every person/family? on the planet would have to have their own TMI to total up to one Chernobyl. Now, I guess my calcs or assumptions or info or memory could be horribly off, but they would have to be REALLY off to not make the point that its almost absurd to compare the two (except as near polar opposites). ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/370 "2011-03-18T20:06:00Z")
Does anybody else read/hear/see that they are saying it’s now as bad as TMI? Are you kidding me? The disconnect between reality and what people want to believe is reaching new heights. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/371 "2011-03-18T20:11:21Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Does anybody else read/hear/see that they are saying it’s now as bad as TMI? Are you kidding me? The disconnect between reality and what people want to believe is reaching new heights. Did I say it was a TMI? Geez. I was making a point about TMI vs Chernobyl for neutrons sake. Oh, and your point about what people want to believe and reality is honestly quite self aware. Congrats on that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/372 "2011-03-18T20:19:35Z")
Not to hector somebody’s Dad, heaven knows, Dads get little enough respect as it is but… My understanding is that the reactors themselves are not so much the worry, just as you note, they have significant protection from the containment vessels. The problem now is those rods in “storage”, which, not being active, are not as robustly protected as an active core, they are just in a pool of water. Or maybe they aren’t. There is definite evidence that they are heating up, and unless a way can be found to keep them in water, they will melt and burn, and there doesn’t appear to be anything to contain the gases that would be given off. This is not an “apocalypse” scenario, but clearly in the “extra super special not good” class. They are having some success with hooking up power that could provide for the engines to run the pumps. Are the pumps still functional? We don’t know, because sending someone to look might very well kill whoever goes to look. And if we can’t send someone to look, we can hardly send in a team with machinery to replace those pumps. And this is based on what they’ve told us, and I haven’t that much faith in their candor. Not that I blame them so much, public panic won’t help anyone, but they have a motivation, however legitimate, not to be totally open. Except for good news. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/373 "2011-03-18T20:20:43Z")
Fer gosh sakes, you certainly don’t want to tell anyone if a reactor is leaking dangerous amounts of radioactive materials. They might leave the country or something. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/374 "2011-03-18T20:26:40Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Fer gosh sakes, you certainly don’t want to tell anyone if a reactor is leaking dangerous amounts of radioactive materials. They might leave the country or something. As ignorance is showing, it has to be pointed out that there is no good evidence that the reactor is leaking, the dangerous amounts of radiation (that affect only the ones inside or very close to the plant) are coming from the exposed spent fuel rods in the storage ponds. And I do not see that that is being hidden from the people. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/375 "2011-03-18T21:32:30Z")
According to the official statements, it’s hidden from the people trying to save the place. That’s one of the biggest problems. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/376 "2011-03-18T21:38:12Z")
Watching the CNN (turns head and spits) reporting, they keep repeating that there is no way to tell what is going on. Then they show the video from the drone/helicopter yesterday, and try to analyze shaking low res video. Trying to determine what is there. Anyone with a brain is screaming at the TV, “Hey! Ever heard of an infrared camera? How about ultraviolet camera? I bet somebody even invented one that can detect x-rays, gamma rays and other radiation signatures. Why not fly one of them over the site?” I mean, we can spot and kill people from 30 miles away, at night, based on infrared imaging. But you can’t get a friggin drone to fly overhead with a thermal imaging camera? Or a friggin zoom lens? Nobody on the whole planet has a device that measure gamma rays? Talk about being prepared for a nuclear disaster. “Hey Bob, we might have a leak somewhere” “Gee Joe, too bad nobody ever invented a device that can take pictures of anything other than visible light, then we could scan for it” “Yeah Bob, I knows. Lets get out the Geiger counters and walk around the whole plant a few times.” “Someday we won’t have to do this no more” “Yep, someday” ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/377 "2011-03-18T22:06:55Z")
**FX** , are you under the impression that TEPCO, the Japanese authorities and the various advising bodies they’re coordinating with are basing their situational assessments on CNN’s reporting and camera work? ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/378 "2011-03-18T22:16:17Z")
Not anymore. > **[Japan Earthquake: Global Hawk UAV May Be Able to Peek Inside Damaged Reactors](https://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/military-robots/global-hawk-uav-may-be-able-to-peek-inside-damaged-reactors)** > > A Global Hawk UAV is scheduled to overfly the Fukushima Dai-1 nuclear plant today, taking infrared images to attempt to determine what's happening inside the reactor buildings Yay! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/379 "2011-03-18T22:21:00Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > According to the official statements, it’s hidden from the people trying to save the place. That’s one of the biggest problems. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/380 "2011-03-18T22:29:58Z")
This is sort of a side note. I found the following link about some software developed at SNL for these kind of situations. [Link](http://www.sandia.gov/LabNews/LN12-01-00/labnews12-01-00.pdf). I know Randy Cole. We’d go to the lake and do various get togethers when I was a kid. He worked for my Dad for a while. Sam Thompson, who is mentioned in that article help me pass a take home astronomy final in college. I house sat for his wife after he died. I went to the lake a bajillion times with Sam and his wife. Anyway, it is an interesting article Slee [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647.md?page=20)