# Still support nuke power plants? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647 "2011-03-14T11:56:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/721 "2011-03-21T18:11:00Z")
Can we agree Japan, and the Fukushima region, need hospitals right now? Patients were abandoned at one hospital I’ve already linked to. That hospital had doctors and patients and was still caring for, and sheltering patients after both the earthquake and tsunami. It was the nuclear power plant that caused the staff to abandon their patients, and a hospital that was obviously still operational and staffed enough to be caring for sick and wounded. Yes, that’s making matters much worse. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/722 "2011-03-21T18:13:27Z")
That is 100% true. But do you really think there was just one Hospital in the abandoned area? Over 200,000 people have evacuated. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/723 "2011-03-21T18:31:15Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Heck, half a million Japanese could die and I’d still be pro-nuclear. Quoted for posterity. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/724 "2011-03-21T18:38:20Z")
It’s hard to tell if people are being serious or joking around. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/725 "2011-03-21T18:39:34Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > For an informed person, there is a lot of dark humor in listening to “idiots” spew nonsense and propaganda, trying to convince people that nuclear is safe, has ‘always been safe’, whatever. Who is trying to convince people that nuclear power is safe and always has been? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/726 "2011-03-21T18:42:59Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I thought the evacuation number was closer to 80,000… when did it increase? [According to CNN it’s 200k](http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/18/japan.disaster/?hpt=T2). > [@](#): > > The government has ordered the evacuation of about 200,000 people living in a 20-kilometer (12.4-mile) area around the plant, and told people living between 20 kilometers and 30 kilometers (18.6 miles) from the plant to remain indoors. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/727 "2011-03-21T19:34:45Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > That is 100% true. But do you really think there was just one Hospital in the abandoned area? Over 200,000 people have evacuated. Even with US military support they were still behind the transportation curve due to the damage caused by the earthquake and Tsunami. They were battling forest fires with helicopters in the early days of it. It’s hard to imagine the abandonment of patients at a hospital. In my area I’ve personally watched a traffic accident victim airlifted from a highway that was a mile from a hospital. The medical care is such that we would rather airlift a patient to a hospital 7 miles away then utilize a hospital chartered for children. We also have a civilian core of volunteer pilots who fly people to destination. That’s what is available on a normal day. But when you compare the tsunami to Katrina you get an idea of the kind of assets needed to deal with large scale destruction. We used 35% of the entire inventory of Coast Guard rescue copters and 46,000 National Guard troops. Because of the shear size of the United States we had the assets to focus on a small area which in this case would have been the size of Japan. The area affected by Katrina was roughly the size of Japan. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/728 "2011-03-21T20:06:45Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > Who is trying to convince people that nuclear power is safe and always has been? Lots of people. For example - [Nuclear power is still safe. Japan has only proved how safe.](http://blog.seattlepi.com/theethicist/2011/03/17/nuclear-power-is-still-safe-japan-has-only-proved-how-safe/) A lot of people seem to think, and I actually believe they think this, they believe TMI was no big deal, and nobody ever was hurt by it. And that a partial meltdown and loss of two reactor sites wasn’t that important. > **[30 years later: Do nuclear plants operate more safely? | Three Mile Island...](http://www.tmia.com/arenculearplantsmoresafe)** The constant stream of claims that the Japanese disaster isn’t anywhere close to Chernobyl is so absurd I keep thinking it’s some joke, an Onion style report. Like when CNN reports, with no pause, that “Nishiyama said there was no evident explosion, spike in radiation or injuries at the No. 3 reactor.” \http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/21/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T2# or “the origin of the smoke at either reactor was unknown.” Are you fucking kidding me? And no media outlet even questions this shit, or raises the obvious point. “It’s been 10 days since multiple explosions, fires and radiation leaking from a site with 6 reactors, and you can’t tell either where smoke is coming from, or what is in it?” Do you really think people are that stupid? You have TWO extremely damaged reactors, both spewing ‘something’ into the wind, and you DON’T KNOW WHAT IT IS? It’s so far beyond unreal at this point … ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/729 "2011-03-21T20:27:39Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Do you really think people are that stupid? You have TWO extremely damaged reactors, both spewing ‘something’ into the wind, and you DON’T KNOW WHAT IT IS? Well no, but then again, I do believe most people are not leaping all the way into low earth orbit to reach their conclusions - or any conclusions at all at this time, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/730 "2011-03-21T20:33:25Z")
“We have two fires, smoke coming from reactor 3 and 4” What is burning? “we have no idea” Where is the smoke coming from? “we have no idea” Is there radioactive material in the smoke? “we have no idea” Thanks. That certainly is reassuring. (calls navy base. “move all the ships out, and evacuate the people”) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/731 "2011-03-21T20:49:28Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Quoted for posterity. Good, because I’m dead serious. This isn’t the result of some flaw of nuclear power, it’s what can happen when a truly rare and devastating natural disaster occurs. Frankly, I’m impressed at the engineering skill that kept it from being far worse. But even if a truly unprecedented human disaster resulted (and it would take a pretty absurd and unlikely series of events for that to occur), nuclear is still a better option then continuing with fossil-fuels. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/732 "2011-03-21T20:53:06Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Lots of people… > A lot of people seem to think, and I actually believe they think this, they believe TMI was no big deal, and nobody ever was hurt by it… I’m close to being one of those people. What is completely missing in the anti-nuke camp is any sense of scale or comparison. Even factoring in the worst-case reporting of the accident, each of the individual humans being served power from the plant were constantly in far greater danger from their personal bathtubs, automobiles, local crosswalks, or prescription medicine than they ever were or have been from TMI. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/733 "2011-03-21T21:00:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Good, because I’m dead serious. This isn’t the result of some flaw of nuclear power, it’s what can happen when a truly rare and devastating natural disaster occurs. Frankly, I’m impressed at the engineering skill that kept it from being far worse. But even if a truly unprecedented human disaster resulted (and it would take a pretty absurd and unlikely series of events for that to occur), nuclear is still a better option then continuing with fossil-fuels. I’m not impressed one bit by the engineering of these plants. They should have had a higher level of redundancy from day one. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/734 "2011-03-21T21:04:54Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Lots of people. For example - > > [Nuclear power is still safe. Japan has only proved how safe.](http://blog.seattlepi.com/theethicist/2011/03/17/nuclear-power-is-still-safe-japan-has-only-proved-how-safe/) Oh. I thought someone was arguing that nuclear is safe, and has always been safe, when you said: > [@FXMastermind](#): > > “idiots”…trying to convince people that nuclear is safe, has ‘always been safe’ I suppose I was also naive enough to think that you were attempting to debate with people in this thread, rather than knock down Seattle PI blogger straw men. ---
**Author:** ![randy054](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/54ee81/32.png) [@randy054](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randy054)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/735 "2011-03-21T21:12:38Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > No, even from the start Chernobyl was “that serious”. First, the fact that the first the world heard about it was from nuclear plant workers in Finland and Sweden hundreds of miles away detecting greater radiation _outside_ their facilities rather than inside was a tip off the problem was serious, and it happened the _same day_ as the accident. As soon as it was determined _actual pieces of a working reactor core_ were ejected from the plant it was known to be “that serious”. The fact that the radiation monitoring devices went _off the scale_ within minutes of the accident was a tip off it was “that serious” although the outside world wouldn’t know that for awhile. > > At Fukushima most of the vented radioactivity blew out to sea, and it’s mostly in a form that will decay to harmlessness quickly. It took days for it to reach anywhere else, and those amounts were very small. No bits of the reactor were ejected. The radiation monitors showed dangerous amounts of radiation at the plant site itself, but nothing went off the scale. > > Is Fukushima serious? Yes, yes it is. But it is NOT a Chernobyl level event. > Nope, can’t say that - 2 million dead of any cause is a big deal. For that matter 20,000 dead of any cause - like a tsunami - is a big deal. But, so far as we know, _no one_ has died at Fukushima other than some poor guy who _fell off a crane_ during the earthquake. He died of gravity, not radiation. > > Now, if some of those plant workers die of radiation sickness, or of cancer 10 or 20 years down the line, that will be tragic. But I can’t see this accident, even as serious as it is, having anywhere near the toll of Chernobyl. > > What you don’t get is that this is NOT going to cause “increased cancers and other ailments further down the line” for the whole planet. No, not even if the fuel rods “blow up” (which at this point they’re less and less likely to as the pool temps are coming done). Outside of a very, very limited area any radioactive particles will be too dispersed, and too lost against the _natural_ background radiation, and the lingering effects of all that above-ground atomic testing in the 1940’s and 1950’s, to make any difference. > > Key differences between Chernobyl and Fukushima: > > - Chernobyl caused radiation deaths within days. So far, Fukushima has caused none a week into the problem, and may not cause any at all. It is reasonable to conclude that the death total from Fukushima is going to be much, much lower than at Chernobyl, if there are any deaths at all. > > - Chernobyl required tons of crops not only in the Ukraine but across Europe to be destroyed due to contamination. Close to Fukushima some crops are showing elevated levels of radioactivity, but since most of the Bad Stuff blew out over the Pacific it’s not going to reach North America in sufficient quantities to require destruction of crops there. > > - At Chernobyl an active reactor really did blow up and spew chunks of itself around the local area. At Fukushima the reactor cores stayed in the reactors. The explosions were outgassing hydrogen which, while they did cause damage, did not leave chunks of reactor core laying about the neighborhood. This means little, if any, of the area around Fukushima will need to be off limits long term whereas Chernobyl still has about 180 years to go with the best estimates before it’s safe to raise a family there. > > Is this bad for Japan? Yes, it is. The loss of generated power is bad. The economic impact of needing to keep some of the farm produce out of the food chain for awhile (two months for concerns about iodine, longer for anything with cesium in it) is bad. You know what else is bad? Having a big chunk of coastline smashed up by a tsunami, which is going to have an _even bigger_ economic and human impact that the problem at Fukushima. How bad could it theoretically get if the wind switched and started blowing nonstop toward…say Tokyo. Or how bad could it have been were the wind blowing toward Tokyo from the start? ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/736 "2011-03-21T21:21:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’m not impressed one bit by the engineering of these plants. They should have had a higher level of redundancy from day one. You can 2nd guess it all you want. Congratulations on your 20-20 hindsight. They did what was considered prudent and acceptable at the time, and the stockholders did not make the call. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/737 "2011-03-21T21:23:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The plants in Japan are currently doing an excellent job of demonstrating how safe nuclear power is. Can you name me a single energy-production facility, other than nuke plants, that survived unharmed in Japan? Of course, the coal plant that they are using to provide power to the nuclear plant right now. > [@RickJay](#): > > So far in all the history of nuclear power generation almost all the deaths were the result of the criminal ineptitude of a corrupt and evil dictatorship that had more technology than ethics. Other than that it’s been remarkably safe. Remarkable. And one of my favorites > [@xtisme](#): > > And this is a point that the anti-nuke crowd seems incapable of grasping…even with a disaster on this scale, the plant didn’t fail. Even though it’s an older and less safe design to modern design it didn’t fail. So three explosions, four destroyed reactors, two partial meltdowns, three fires and an unknown amount of radioactive release, and that is spun as “the plant didn’t fail”. See why I find dark humor at work? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/738 "2011-03-21T21:30:37Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Plutonium reactors are for making plutonium, not for power. Nobody uses plutonium for power, it’s far too dangerous. > > They got caught with an active breeder reactor going. There’s a story nobody wants to think about. Science Fiction called. It wants you to stop jumping that shark. Seriously, you just took a flying leap of the deep end. It’s gone past funny and amusing into being concerned for ability to reach out and touch reality. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/739 "2011-03-21T21:33:53Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Can we agree Japan, and the Fukushima region, need hospitals right now? Patients were abandoned at one hospital I’ve already linked to. That hospital had doctors and patients and was still caring for, and sheltering patients after both the earthquake and tsunami. > > It was the nuclear power plant that caused the staff to abandon their patients, and a hospital that was obviously still operational and staffed enough to be caring for sick and wounded. > > Yes, that’s making matters much worse. Is that certain, the reason why the hospital was abandoned? Or were the staff fleeign the tsunami? Because when I first heard about it no one was sure which it was. Actually, I’ve heard of a couple hospitals being found with patients and no staff, and not all next to Fukushima. I’ve heard of hospitals where the staff stayed, but couldn’t prevent a few floors of people being swept away - those who could reach the upper floors, or couldn’t be carried there, didn’t survive. I’m interested in confirmed facts, not just rumor. Yes, we know some patients were abandoned. Are we sure we know why? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/740 "2011-03-21T21:41:11Z")
We wish we had a rational argument, but we are in a reasoned argument. In a completely rational argument, empiricism is king. If the argument is about what temperature water boils, then we need only take a pan full of water, a thermometer, and a fire, and the answer becomes clear: 212 Good Old American degrees, or 100 Eurotrash degrees. Argument over. We all love that sort of certainty, possibly more here. Whenever possible, we like to claim empirical certainty, because otherwise we are forced into the uncertainty of reason, of balancing conflicting data and interpretations. For instance, we are comforted by empirical data about radiation, that it takes X amount of radiation to produce undesirable result Y. And, alternatively, it _only_ takes X amount, etc. But how much of that do we really know? Can we say, with authority, that we have enough examples of rampant irradiation to draw upon? Do we understand the nature of radiation sufficiently to have such precise epidemiology? Where would we have gotten it, given the relative paucity of such events as we are witnessing, the Goddess be praised? We rightly put great faith in empirical evidence, we would all love to be as certain as a scientist can be, put the argument to experiment, and it is done. But to smack each other in the face with “empirical” evidence that is really an informed conjecture fails, it reduces our opportunity to a reasoned course of action. Take, for instance, that chart outlining radiation doses/effects currently making the interrounds by the good grace of XKCD. It is remarkably precise, the hallmark of solid empirical evidence. But I have to wonder where and when the experiments were done? How much direct data do we have regarding the effect of radiation upon us water bags? I would hope not very much, and would want even less. So, gentlepersons, pals and gals, let us set aside the pretense that we can solve this argument with direct experimental observation and the rock-solid solace of empirical data. We most likely cannot, we are forced into the realm of reason. Certainty is a sham in this discussion, we need to have ourselves a little slack-cutting party, even for the pro-nuke morons who are bent on irradiating our children till they glow in the dark and… Oops. Sorry. I’ll work on that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647.md?page=38)