# Still support nuke power plants? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647 "2011-03-14T11:56:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 54
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1061 "2011-03-25T21:31:00Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > The lack of solid data is maddening. And yet, between your uncitable assertions, you insist on jumping to wild conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1062 "2011-03-25T21:34:00Z")
If you don’t know anything, you don’t know that a conclusion is wild or not. Logical fallacy. The same goes for people insisting there is no big problem. They can’t know that, so they just jumped to a wild conclusion. Or something. Of course since no amount of damage or release of radiation will change a true nuclear believers mind, it doesn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1063 "2011-03-25T21:38:50Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > If you don’t know anything, you don’t know that a conclusion is wild or not. Logical fallacy. The same goes for people insisting there is no big problem. They can’t know that, so they just jumped to a wild conclusion. Actually, you can tell if a conclusion is wild or not. “Wild” as a descriptor does not mean that a conclusion is wrong, merely that it is wild. It is not a logical fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1064 "2011-03-25T21:39:14Z")
It’s kinda hard to tell where stuff’s going or where it’s coming from when you’re continuously spraying millions of gallons of water all over the place. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1065 "2011-03-25T21:51:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Officials continue to be dogged by suspicions that they are not telling the entire story about the radiation leaks. Shunichi Tanaka, former acting chairman of the country’s Atomic Energy Commission, told The Japan Times in an interview published Friday that the government was being irresponsible in forcing people from their homes around the damaged plant without explaining the risks they were facing. > > “The government has not yet said in concrete terms why evacuation is necessary to the people who have evacuated,” he said. > > The severity of the radiation burns to the injured workers are consistent with contamination by water that had been in contact with damaged fuel rods, the executive said. > **[Japan Encourages a Wider Evacuation From Reactor Area (Published 2011)](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/world/asia/26japan.html?_r=4&hp=&pagewanted=all)** > > Officials suggest that people living from 12 to 19 miles outside the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant should leave, as new signs emerged that it will be hard to bring the plant under control. > [@](#): > > “There is a definite, definite crack in the vessel — it’s up and down and it’s large,” he said. “The problem with cracks is they do not get smaller.” > > But Michael Friedlander, a former nuclear power plant operator in the United States, said that the presence of radioactive cobalt and molybdenum in water samples taken from the basement of the turbine building raised the possibility of a very different leak. > > Both materials typically occur not because of fission but because of routine corrosion in a reactor and its associated piping over the course of many years of use, he said. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1066 "2011-03-25T22:38:16Z")
**FX** , really and seriously I have read no one here claiming that there has been nothing to worry about. Pretty much everyone has been very concerned and have acknowledged that the potential for this become a much much worse disaster was very real. The irritation expressed has been at those who have been concluding that the worst had already happened. Understanding a serious situation is not helped by those making unsubstantiated claims. Incomplete information and conflicting information does seem to be the norm. For example, googling for information about this likely crack I found [this](http://www.livescience.com/13271-containment-breach-fukushima-implications.html) > [@](#): > > A containment vessel at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear reactor cracked under the pressure of the rising heat and steam inside it yesterday Dated March 16th. Did that happen? The article then went on to state > [@](#): > > Fukushima will not yield a Chernobyl-scale disaster, because the nuclear fission of uranium dioxide inside the reactor has long since been turned off; radiation is not being actively produced, but is only coming from the decay of residual fission products. (There are hundreds of such products, some of which have already fully decayed, others of which decay more slowly.) By contrast, the Chernobyl explosion occurred while fission was running at full force, causing one-third of the radioactive material in the nuclear core to blast out into the environment. > > Still, the Fukushima containment breach will produce a much larger radiation leak than was initially expected, and a massive cleanup at Fukushima will now be required. What are we to believe? ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1067 "2011-03-25T22:55:24Z")
Nobody has even described the worst case scenario, much less claimed it has already happened. Where did that come from? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1068 "2011-03-25T23:16:10Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > The lack of solid data is maddening. It seems like the water was in the turbine building, but that is conjecture based on extensive analysis of the plant, which is all based on scant information. YOU have scant information. I have scant information. The people actually dealing with this crisis are not, in fact, obligated to keep you or me updated with every little detail of what is going on. We have no idea how much the people on site do or do not know, and frankly, I’d rather they concentrate on fixing the problems, or at least containing them, than stop every 15 minutes to speak with the press so you can be kept happy. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1069 "2011-03-25T23:16:18Z")
Oh off the top of my head, **gonzo** claiming that people had already died from radiation jumps to my mind, claims days past that meltdowns and ruptures had already occurred, among many other examples of mutant hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1070 "2011-03-25T23:22:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Officials continue to be dogged by suspicions that they are not telling the entire story about the radiation leaks. Shunichi Tanaka, former acting chairman of the country’s Atomic Energy Commission, told The Japan Times in an interview published Friday that the government was being irresponsible in forcing people from their homes around the damaged plant without explaining the risks they were facing. > > “The government has not yet said in concrete terms why evacuation is necessary to the people who have evacuated,” he said. Unbelievable - you have a power plant melting down and on fire and people require an _explanation_ as to why they should be elsewhere? Is it really _that hard_ to figure this out? People need to leave the immediate environment of the power plant, unless they are dealing with the emergency, because while the situation is not fully under control Bad Stuff might be released, stuff you really don’t want to exposure yourself to unnecessarily. There is an outer ring where evacuation is _voluntary_ - the government is saying it’s not bad now but in light of more information there is a _potential_ for things to get worse, so taking a vacation elsewhere is not a bad idea, particularly if you have children or are pregnant. There, is it _that hard_ to comprehend? It’s like when there is a massive fire and the authorities ask people to evacuation BEFORE the fire reaches them, knowing that in some cases - nay, many - the fire will _never_ reach those people, they just don’t know which particular ones. But you move them _before_ things get worse because if you wait it may be too late or there is a greater risk of injury. I swear, if they weren’t evacuating people would be screaming bloody murder about _that_. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1071 "2011-03-25T23:25:46Z")
Calm down. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1072 "2011-03-26T01:32:57Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Oh off the top of my head, **gonzo** claiming that people had already died from radiation jumps to my mind, claims days past that meltdowns and ruptures had already occurred, among many other examples of mutant hyperbole. On the top your head is hair. But when do you claim I made the claim that people died already? However the guys that got splashed are dead meat. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1073 "2011-03-26T01:34:03Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > On the top your head is hair. … There you go again with the false reports! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1074 "2011-03-26T01:39:10Z")
And sorry for not remembering quite right - it was the claim that core radiation had been released long before there was nay evidence that it had been. It’s been a long thread. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1075 "2011-03-26T01:41:13Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > mutant hyperbole. Band name. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1076 "2011-03-26T02:04:42Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Oh off the top of my head, **gonzo** claiming that people had already died from radiation jumps to my mind, claims days past that meltdowns and ruptures had already occurred, among many other examples of mutant hyperbole. I thought it was **FXmastermind** making that claim… ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1077 "2011-03-26T02:26:27Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I thought it was **FXmastermind** making that claim… Like I said, long thread. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1078 "2011-03-26T03:44:32Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > And sorry for not remembering quite right - it was the claim that core radiation had been released long before there was nay evidence that it had been. It’s been a long thread. Sorry. Tokyo’s water supply was contaminated 130 miles away and despite 5000 miles of dispersion it’s shown up in the US. They still don’t know why the water in #3 is so contaminated. They are increasing the evacuation zone. It’s important that the people around the plant know how serious this is. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1079 "2011-03-26T04:03:20Z")
Well Magiver…how serious is it? The last I read they lifted the warning to parents of small children and said that the water in Tokyo was reading below the legal limit of contamination for infants (which has got to be extremely low…afaik, and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong here, the only contamination level reached was the legal limit for infants). So…how serious is it? Your post seems very ominous but sort of vague. As for the contamination at the plant, no one is saying it’s not serious…but the most I’ve heard anyone yet being exposed to were those three workers that walked into a pool of contaminated water, and while they got a serious dose, it wasn’t exactly fatal. It was (IIRC) something like 170-190 mSv. Nasty, no doubt, but far from even the dose needed to get serious radiation sickness, let alone be killed by it. No one doubts that it’s a serious problem (contrary to the assertions of some of the anti-nuke folks in this thread or the Pit version), and that it’s going to take some serious cleanup…and the plant is far from out of the woods at this point. But has anyone considered the other contamination that have happened in Japan in the wake of this disaster? What about all of the oil, chemical spills and other nasty stuff from all of the buildings, cars, industrial plants, coal plants and everything else that got hammered? Has anyone checked the water supplies to see if that other stuff is in there? Checked to see if it’s gotten into the water supply or food chain in the areas really hammered? Probably…but it doesn’t make the news because right now everyone is focused on the ‘nuclear disaster’ unfolding. There were coal plants burning out of control, there were the gods know how many cars, trucks, buses, boats, etc that were flooded. There were shops and businesses with the gods know what chemicals in them destroyed by walls of water or set on fire from the earthquakes and putting out who knows what from the smoke. Yet the only thing we here is about this nuclear disaster…a disaster that has injured a handful of workers (not to take anything away from them…it takes a boatload of guts to work in that environment, especially when their own homes and families were probably equally effected from the earthquake and tsunami) and killed no one (from the radiation anyway). I just wish people could get a bit of perspective on this whole thing and try and look at the bigger picture…a bigger picture where there are 10’s of thousands of dead or injured Japanese who are struggling for everything right now, including finding clean water and food. And clean food and water not because of the radiation that’s above the legal limits for infants, but because it’s contaminated from all this non-nuclear shit that got dumped into it. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1080 "2011-03-26T05:16:26Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > …I just wish people could get a bit of perspective on this whole thing and try and look at the bigger picture…a bigger picture where there are 10’s of thousands of dead or injured Japanese who are struggling for everything right now, including finding clean water and food. And clean food and water not because of the radiation that’s above the legal limits for infants, but because it’s contaminated from all this non-nuclear shit that got dumped into it. > > -XT But that’s like telling a woman, don’t worry about removing your breasts, the important thing is you have no cancer. Or telling someone don’t worry if we remove all your teeth, the toothache will be done. Or saying let’s cut off your leg to stop the bacterial infection. In all three cases the immediate problem is sovled. No cancer, no toothache and no more bacterial infection. But you now have a smaller problem leftover which will last a lot longer. Just because more people died in the earthquake is no excuse NOT to discuss the nuclear problem, especially since it will have effects all over the world on energy. Whether or not nuclear power is safe or better IS NOT the problem. If it’s preceived as unsafe no matter how wrong, the plants won’t be built. This can lead to any number of side arguments you care to mention. Japanese people are suffering but I can go to any city in America and find suffering people. A year from now, most of the people will be resettled, the houses rebuilt and the infrastructure repaired. But we’ll be discussing the nuclear problem for decades nows. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647.md?page=53) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647.md?page=55)