# Still support nuke power plants? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647 "2011-03-14T11:56:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 59
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1161 "2011-03-29T04:31:51Z")
But… - Don’t stop him, he is on a roll! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1162 "2011-03-29T06:12:14Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > But.. > > - Don’t stop him, he is on a roll! > > 🙂 And a kaiser roll at that. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1163 "2011-03-29T15:09:57Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You mean engineers aren’t evil?? ☹ I wasted 8 years of college…for nothing??? Yes, you did. Everyone knows it’s us scientists who are Evil. **malefically cackles while polishing PhD of Evil Physics** You engineer are too pragmatic to bother with the theoretical underpinnings of Evil. Take the classic examples of “sharks with laser beams”. You engineers immediately start worrying about where to get corrosion-resistant lasers, whether to glue or bolt the laser onto the shark, how to recharge the batteries, etc, etc. We scientists are the ones who discovered coherent photon sources and the life cycles of the sharks, knowing that they could eventually be put to Evil purposes. Without our discoveries, we’d still be simply tossing unionized nuns into the ocean, instead of watching sharks blasting and devouring them. (Sorry to the moderators if this is inappropriate to the forum, but I think this thread jumped from debate to farce quite a while ago.) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1164 "2011-03-29T15:22:14Z")
But did it get blasted by the “laser” when it jumped the shark??? 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1165 "2011-03-29T16:05:27Z")
I think this thread is just fine. It could be better without people coming here to whine about how they’re “giving up” on a Pit thread, and instead bringing their Pit whining to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1166 "2011-03-29T16:08:47Z")
Good first step. I read that Japan is considering nationalizing nuclear plants. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1167 "2011-03-29T16:56:50Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Without our discoveries, we’d still be simply tossing unionized nuns into the ocean, instead of watching sharks blasting and devouring them. Wold that be un-ionized nuns, or union-ized nuns? Just wondering, ‘cause I can’t remember ever seeing an ionized nun. Not that I’m very familiar with nun unions either, tho’… BTW, being a scientist with an engineering PhD, I’m covered on the “evil” no matter the outcome of this debate. Mwuaaahahahaha! ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1168 "2011-03-29T17:17:05Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > Wold that be un-ionized nuns, or union-ized nuns? Just wondering, ‘cause I can’t remember ever seeing an ionized nun. Not that I’m very familiar with nun unions either, tho’… The former. That’s what the lasers are for–ionizing. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1169 "2011-03-29T17:40:31Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] I think this thread is just fine. It could be better without people coming here to whine about how they’re “giving up” on a Pit thread, and instead bringing their Pit whining to this thread. [/QUOTE] The Pit threads were both basically anti-nukers wankfests, with nothing substantial coming out of them. I felt like I was just beating my head against the various stone walls posting in, including a certain 'doper who posted a link to some farmers who couldn’t sell their produce and then said that the disaster that’s left 10’s of thousands dead and hundreds of thousands homeless really wasn’t all that bad, because it only affected a small percentage of their overall population. It’s that sort of thing that eventually you just have to walk away from…some ignorance simply can’t be fought and has to be endured. As for this thread, nothing substantial has been said that hadn’t already been said in pages now. The [latest](http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html) IAEA update was yesterday, and basically said: > [@](#): > > Fukushima Nuclear Accident Update (28 March 2011, 23:00 UTC) > > Japan Confirms Plutonium in Soil Samples at Fukushima Daiichi > > After taking soil samples at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, Japanese authorities today confirmed finding traces of plutonium that most likely resulted from the nuclear accident there. The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency told the IAEA that the Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) had found concentrations of plutonium in two of five soil samples. > > Traces of plutonium are not uncommon in soil because they were deposited worldwide during the atmospheric nuclear testing era. However, the isotopic composition of the plutonium found at Fukushima Daiichi suggests the material came from the reactor site, according to TEPCO officials. Still, the quantity of plutonium found does not exceed background levels tracked by Japan’s Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology over the past 30 years. So…about the same as has already been mentioned (and ignored by some anti-nuke types). I was reading an article this morning where they were talking about trying to pump out the contaminated water, but that they are running short of storage tanks and are trying to figure out what to do. That seems to be the latest crisis…how to get the contaminated water out and safely into storage before it back flows into the sea or they have a larger spill on the grounds. They were saying that it’s sort of a catch-22, since they need to pump fresh water in but they are having trouble getting the old contaminated sea water out. How will they solve this latest crisis? Damned if I know. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1170 "2011-03-29T19:21:35Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Good first step. I read that Japan is considering nationalizing nuclear plants. Why? There was nothing wrong with the plants. They met engineering goals of 8.2 earthquakes and tsunamis of 3 (?) meters. The buildings survived a 9.0 earthquake but the secondary systems were destroyed by a larger tsunami. Besides an easily required 3rd layer of backup (96 hrs of batteries? versus 8) what do you think bureaucrats would do better? They can write a slip of paper upping the requirements in 2 lines. Higher generators and longer batteries. DONE. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1171 "2011-03-29T19:43:13Z")
I hear that Chernobyl was nationalized and that appeared to work for them. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1172 "2011-03-29T19:57:34Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I hear that Chernobyl was nationalized and that appeared to work for them. Playing the Chernobyl card is okay now? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1173 "2011-03-29T20:53:13Z")
For anyone interested, the [IAEA](http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html) updated the status on their web page. A couple of interesting things: > [@](#): > > 1. Current Situation > > The situation at the Fukushima Daiichi plant remains very serious. > > Accumulated contaminated water was found in trenches located close to the turbine buildings of Units 1 to 3. Dose rates at the surface of this water were 0.4 millisieverts/hour for Unit 1 and over 1 000 millisieverts/hour for Unit 2 as of 18:30 UTC on 26 March. The Nuclear Safety Commission of Japan suggests that higher activity in the water discovered in the Unit 2 turbine building is supposed to be caused by the water, which has been in contact with molten fuel rods for a time and directly released into the turbine building via some, as yet unidentified path. An investigation is underway as to how the water accumulated in the trenches. Measurements could not be carried out at Unit 3 because of the presence of debris. > > Fresh water has been continuously injected into the Reactor Pressure Vessels (RPVs) of Units 1, 2 and 3. From today at Unit 1, the pumping of fresh water through the feed-water line will no longer be performed by fire trucks but by electrical pumps with a diesel generator. The switch to the use of such pumps has already been made in Units 2 and 3. At Unit 3, the fresh water is being injected through the fire extinguisher line. > > At Unit 1, there has been an increase in temperature at the feed-water nozzle of the RPV from 273.8 °C to 299 °C. The temperature at the bottom of the RPV remained stable at 135 °C. Temperatures at Unit 2 appear relatively stable at the same measurement points. At Unit 3, the temperature at the feed-water nozzle of the RPV is about 61.5 °C and 120.9 °C at the bottom of the RPV. The validity of the RPV temperature measurement at the feed water nozzle is still under investigation. > > With the increase in temperature at Unit 1, there has been a corresponding increase in Drywell pressure. In the Drywell of Unit 2, the indicated pressure dropped slightly and is just above atmospheric. > > It is planned to begin pumping fresh water into the spent fuel pool of Unit 4 today, on 29 March. > [@](#): > > Five soil samples, collected at distances between 500 and 1 000 metres from the exhaust stack of Unit 1 and 2 of the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant on 21 and 22 March, were analysed for plutonium-238 and for the sum of plutonium-239 and plutonium-240. (Due to analytical reasons, the isotopes plutonium-239 and plutonium-240 cannot be measured separately). Plutonium-238 was detected in 2 of the 5 samples, while plutonium-239/240 was detected in all samples as expected. > [@](#): > > Concentrations reported for both, plutonium-238 and plutonium-239/240 are similar to those deposited in Japan as a result of the testing of nuclear weapons. The ratio of the concentrations of plutonium-238 and plutonium-239/240 in two of the samples indicate that very small amounts of plutonium might have been released during the Fukushima accident, but this requires to be further clarified. > [@](#): > > As far as food contamination is concerned, 63 samples taken from 24 - 29 March, and reported on from 27 - 29 March, for various vegetables, fruit (strawberries), mushrooms, eggs, seafood and pasteurized milk in eight prefectures (Chiba, Fukushima, Gunma, Ibaraki, Miyagi, Niigata, Tochigi and Yamagata), stated that results for iodine-131, caesium-134 and caesium-137 were either not detected or were below the regulation values set by the Japanese authorities. > > The Joint FAO/IAEA Food Safety Assessment Team met with local government authorities in Ibaraki prefecture on Monday and provided advice related to contamination of food and the environment, including the mechanisms and persistence of such contamination, examples of remediation strategies, international standards and sampling plan designs and radionuclide transfer from soil to plants, particularly as related to rice production in the area. > [@](#): > > No new results from the marine monitoring stations 30 km off-shore were reported for 27 or 28 March. However, new analyses in seawater 330 m east to the discharges point of NPP Units 1 - 4 were made available for 27 March. These concentrations show a significant decrease from 74 000 Becquerel per litre of iodine-131, 12 000 Becquerel per litre of cesium-137, and 12 000 Becquerel per litre of cesium-134 on 26 March to 11 000 Becquerel per litre of iodine-131 and 1 900 Becquerel per litre of cesium-137 on 27 March. > [@](#): > > First analyses were reported in fish carried out by the National Research Institute of Fishery Research. 5 samples of fish were collected from the port of Choshi (Chiba prefecture) and 4 of 5 samples showed Cs-137 concentrations below limit of detection. In one sample Cs-137 was found with 3 Bq/kg (fresh weight) and it was reported that it was slightly above the limit of detection. This concentration is far below any concern for fish consumption. > > It is still too early to draw conclusions for expected concentrations on marine food, because the situation may change rapidly, however, it is expected that the detected initial concentrations of seawater will soon drop to lower values by dilution and the levels in marine food will most likely not reach levels above given limits for consumption, (presuming that discharges of contaminated seawater from the reactor will not continue). It is not expected that fish or other marine food will be collected in a close area to the NPP Fukushima at the present situation. Some marine algae are known to accumulate in particular I-131 and Tc-99m. However, these values will soon be of no concern due to the short half-lives of the radionuclides mentioned. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1174 "2011-03-29T22:34:52Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Playing the Chernobyl card is okay now? I didn’t want to be the only one left out! ---
**Author:** ![Apollo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@Apollo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollo)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1175 "2011-03-29T22:44:13Z")
[TEPCO CEO Hasn’t Been Seen In Weeks, And There Are Rumors He Has Fled Or Committed Suicide](http://www.businessinsider.com/masataka-shimizu-missing-2011-3) Doesn’t inspire alot of confidence does it? [Bid to ‘Protect Assets’ Slowed Reactor Fight](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704608504576207912642629904.html?mod=WSJ_hp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsTop) These are the people incharge of preventing a catastrophic nuclear meltdown. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1176 "2011-03-29T22:56:21Z")
“60% man-made:” - gotta love it. Humans are not safe!!! ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1177 "2011-03-29T23:33:11Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > The Pit threads were both basically anti-nukers wankfests, with nothing substantial coming out of them. I felt like I was just beating my head against the various stone walls posting in, including a certain 'doper who posted a link to some farmers who couldn’t sell their produce \ You mean like: [Farmers’ Livelihoods Wither in Japan’s Nuclear Crisis](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/30/world/asia/30farmers.html) Or: [Japan’s farmers battle nuclear scare](http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5i-jJ0tZigSL7ybDUfsFQzx1U0h7w?docId=CNG.5f0ec26ceb2e09160fba6ea67519ee00.151) According to you, Japan’s farms are all flooded with sewer shit and dead bodies, when in fact the overwhelming majority of them are just fine, except for > [@](#): > > Fukushima’s 70,000 commercial farmers produce more than $2.4 billion worth of spinach, tomatoes, milk and other popular foods every year. and > [@](#): > > The government’s ban on produce sales last week stopped that industry — and those in three adjacent prefectures to the south, Ibaraki, Tochigi and Gunma — in their tracks. Across the region, farmers are dumping millions of gallons of milk and tons of ripe vegetables into pits and streams, unable to sell their products legally on the open market. > > “I can’t keep going for too long,” said Kenzo Sasaki, 70, who milks 18 cows on a farm outside the city of Fukushima, the local capital. Mr. Sasaki estimates that he is losing nearly $31,000 — not including the cost of feeding his herd — for every month that the sales ban continues. It goes on and on. You keep denying reality, claiming the tsunami and earthquake contaminated more farmland than is being thrown out and destroyed right now entirely because of the nuclear emergency evacuation. > [@xtisme](#): > > and then said that the disaster that’s left 10’s of thousands dead and hundreds of thousands homeless really wasn’t all that bad, because it only affected a small percentage of their overall population. It’s that sort of thing that eventually you just have to walk away from…some ignorance simply can’t be fought and has to be endured. Actually, you’re the one claiming nuclear is safe because it only kills a small percent of the population compared to cars, so we should ignore 100s of thousands of people being affected by this little old unimportant nuclear emergency thing because like, tsunamis kill people! That’s the sort of reasoning I get from you. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1178 "2011-03-29T23:35:14Z")
As I said earlier in the Pit thread, you should probably try to actually read what I write instead of what you seemingly think I write. _shrug_ -XT ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1179 "2011-03-29T23:41:47Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > You mean like: > > [Farmers’ Livelihoods Wither in Japan’s Nuclear Crisis](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/30/world/asia/30farmers.html) The Faroe Islands and Greenland have had to abolish eating traditional seafood resources on account of they have been polluted with too many toxic metals. Metals that can be directly traced back to Chinese coal powered plants. First it was only pregnant woman that was advised to stay away from it. Then also children. Now it is everybody. I’m very happy that China is building a shitload of new nuclear power plants, rather than an even bigger shitload of coal plants. I’d be happier if they build none of them, but of the two I’ll take nuclear. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/1180 "2011-03-29T23:50:58Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The Faroe Islands and Greenland have had to abolish eating traditional seafood resources on account of they have been polluted with too many toxic metals. Metals that can be directly traced back to Chinese coal powered plants. First it was only pregnant woman that was advised to stay away from it. Then also children. Now it is everybody. I’m very happy that China is building a shitload of new nuclear power plants, rather than an even bigger shitload of coal plants. I’d be happier if they build none of them, but of the two I’ll take nuclear. Cite? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647.md?page=58) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647.md?page=60)