# Still support nuke power plants? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647 "2011-03-14T11:56:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/101 "2011-03-15T01:33:37Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > No - but my local ones have occasionally had fires and explosions without benefit of earthquakes and such fires have certainly killed people and caused evacuations. You have occasional fires and explosions at the power plants near you? I believe I’ve worked at the plants near you, IIRC. Which plant is having these occasional explosions? Nobody’s called me about that. > [@](#): > > The point being that conventional power plants are hardly risk-free either. Toxic smoke from such fires can make people ill, kill them quickly, or raise their risk of cancer later on in life. Wouldn’t want to be downwind of _that_, either. I assure you that a meltdown at a nuclear plant is several orders of magnitude more dangerous and deadly than the equivalent disaster at any other power plant. That’s my point. Recapping, however, I came into this thread not to damn nuclear, but to praise it. I look at the total life-cycle of the plant to compare, and the GHG and other emissions of the coal plant definitely make it the loser in overall risk. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/102 "2011-03-15T01:36:27Z")
I’d be less worried about them if they took the safety issue to a higher level. Some lessons that seem obvious from this incident: - don’t put three nuclear reactors right next to each other - means they can all be affected (and destroyed) by the same event - build a wall 50 feet high and 10 feet thick around them. Or build a dome over them. Or, best of all, put them underground - have 50 different cooling systems that all work in different ways. 25 of which operate independent of the environment The argument that the reactors did well because they stood up to the fourth biggest earthquake ever doesn’t seem very strong to me. It was the tsunami that caused the damage not the earthquake itself and tsunamis in Japan are eminently foreseeable. A really big wall would have stopped it. It was totally foreseeable that Japan might have a “big one” and an associated tsunami. Likewise if you built a reactor on the west coast of America, you’d have one eye on the possibility of a 9+ earthquake and possible tsunami when you were building it and would take that into account. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/103 "2011-03-15T01:37:47Z")
**DSeid** , you’ve confused me. Is that quote supposed to bolster my faith in the reponsiblility and accountability of these power companies? And if not, how is it unfortunate to \*\*Gonzo’\*\*s point? Am I missing something here? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/104 "2011-03-15T01:46:12Z")
Sorry for being unclear: it is unfortunate that he has a point. Much of what he posts on this subject is just knee jerk garbage, but, he has this point. In particular this company has a record of lying to the public about safety. ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/105 "2011-03-15T02:09:17Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I suppose you are young and are not familiar with the history of nuke builders in America. You probably never heard of Silkwood and the covering up of bad welds to get a plant on line faster. I suppose you are unaware of the endless lies and coverups perpetrated by the plant builders and operators. i suppose you are not familiar with the fines they have had to pay. > That is your problem. you should familiarize yourself with their actions before you get critical. The nefarious actions of the builders and operators is available. Maybe you’re right, but if you’re the one asserting these things here, YOU should be providing the cites to back up what you say! The cite you provided wasn’t very strong. What are your other sources of information? I Googled Silkwood and found a movie and a lot of speculation about how Karen Silkwood was deliberately contaminated with plutonium and then murdered, but no data on any criminal investigation, if there was one. A civil suit ran for years and was settled out of court for 1.3 million. Not a lot of data there and no proof of anything. On edit: **Dseid** , that’s not a good record for the company. OTOH it does show that there is independent oversight and verification of the industry, and that heads have rolled when it was warranted. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/106 "2011-03-15T02:18:39Z")
And so swiftly too! Only a matter of a few years. Very reassuring. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/107 "2011-03-15T02:21:31Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > I’d be less worried about them if they took the safety issue to a higher level. Some lessons that seem obvious from this incident: > > - don’t put three nuclear reactors right next to each other - means they can all be affected (and destroyed) by the same event > > - build a wall 50 feet high and 10 feet thick around them. Or build a dome over them. Or, best of all, put them underground > > - have 50 different cooling systems that all work in different ways. 25 of which operate independent of the environment > > The argument that the reactors did well because they stood up to the fourth biggest earthquake ever doesn’t seem very strong to me. It was the tsunami that caused the damage not the earthquake itself and tsunamis in Japan are eminently foreseeable. A really big wall would have stopped it. > > It was totally foreseeable that Japan might have a “big one” and an associated tsunami. Likewise if you built a reactor on the west coast of America, you’d have one eye on the possibility of a 9+ earthquake and possible tsunami when you were building it and would take that into account. Thing is, the additional safety features you describe would add considerably to the cost of something that is already too expensive and risky for plant builders and operators. They won’t even consider building a new plant unless the government and the public take on the financial, environmental, and public health risks themselves. What does that tell you about their confidence in their own product? I don’t know if coal plants have similar deals or not. I’m sure \*\*Una \*\*knows. As for lives lost, that is really apples and oranges here I think. Never mind the tsunami, at least 200,000 people have been evacuated. Others are told to stay indoors and not open doors or windows. They’re passing out iodine to help lessen radiation damage. Interviews with the populace show that people are absolutely terrified. What’s the dollar value on that? ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/108 "2011-03-15T02:26:45Z")
Costs nothing to build a big concrete wall and that would have averted this crisis completely. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/109 "2011-03-15T02:31:45Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I don’t know if coal plants have similar deals or not. I’m sure \*\*Una \*\*knows. Some do. Some do not. It may sound flippant, but really every plant situation is different. I’ve been on the owner’s engineer team for a $1B plant which needed no handouts at all, and I did see all of the financial numbers which is why I can’t even hint as to where it would be built. I’ve also been on the team for plants which needed so many handouts to exist that it was ludicrous. I’m surprised that they didn’t ask Santa for free coal. I’ve also been on the team for two plants which were canceled because they could not get government assurance of what BACT meant. Incredibly, being told by our government, “you spend $700M and then we’ll tell you what your emissions limits are afterwards.” Utter insanity, and $10M in pre-engineering flushed down the toilet. Every country, every State, even every county is going to have different issues. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/110 "2011-03-15T02:36:14Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > Costs nothing to build a big concrete wall and that would have averted this crisis completely. The first thing that went wrong was the loss of mains power, and that was a result of the quake, not the tsunami. The next thing to go wrong were the back up diesel power generators. It’s unclear if that was because the quake or the tsunami. A wall wouldn’t have prevented anything that’s happened since. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/111 "2011-03-15T02:42:37Z")
I can certainly see one area where a prospective nuke plant builder will be asking for help, and thats the matter of liability insurance. A casual understanding of the situation is that the Japanese plants were self-insured, with the Japanese government as the underwriter of last resort. The deal with that is that the company puts all of its assets at risk in the event of overwhelming liability claims. So the government foots the bill in exchange for a boiling vat of trouble. Such a deal! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/112 "2011-03-15T02:45:09Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > The first thing that went wrong was the loss of mains power, and that was a result of the quake, not the tsunami. The next thing to go wrong were the back up diesel power generators. It’s unclear if that was because the quake or the tsunami. A wall wouldn’t have prevented anything that’s happened since. Just saw this very thing mentioned on _Rachel Maddow_: the generators were located in the lowest ground of the plant site, the water flowed there from everywhere else, it wouldn’t have taken much. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/113 "2011-03-15T03:29:56Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > You have occasional fires and explosions at the power plants near you? I believe I’ve worked at the plants near you, IIRC. Which plant is having these occasional explosions? Nobody’s called me about that. Over the lifetime of my local plants, one of which reputedly dates back to 1930 or so (the architecture would be a match) there have been occasional accidents and fires. That’s a rather long time span, most of it predating ether of us. Don’t get me started on the steel mills and _their_ safety records… > [@](#): > > I assure you that a meltdown at a nuclear plant is several orders of magnitude more dangerous and deadly than the equivalent disaster at any other power plant. That’s my point. Yes, no one is denying this is serious. But I get tired of the media reacting to every little burp from a plant worker as if it’s the end of the world. > [@](#): > > Recapping, however, I came into this thread not to damn nuclear, but to praise it. I look at the total life-cycle of the plant to compare, and the GHG and other emissions of the coal plant definitely make it the loser in overall risk. Yes. Even a normally operating coal plant throws off such lovely things as mercury into the air we breathe. People worry about that in fish, but most people get the bulk of their mercury exposure from coal burning occurring upwind. That said - there are recent reports of a problem with waste stored at the Fukushima site. That is certainly worrisome and elevates the seriousness of the situation if true. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/114 "2011-03-15T03:32:13Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > Costs nothing to build a big concrete wall and that would have averted this crisis completely. Obviously, you’ve never priced a cubic yard of concrete. No, not _that_ much, but it adds up for a project such as you’re proposing. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/115 "2011-03-15T03:32:52Z")
Of course, I still support nuclear energy. Saying you’re anti-nuclear power because of Chernobyl and what’s going on now is like being racist against blacks because of OJ Simpson and Al Sharpton-judging all by the Lowest Common Denominator. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/116 "2011-03-15T03:40:52Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Of course, I still support nuclear energy. > > Saying you’re anti-nuclear power because of Chernobyl and what’s going on now is like being racist against blacks because of OJ Simpson and Al Sharpton-judging all by the Lowest Common Denominator. First off, I’m pro-nuclear, but that argument is asinine. The problems of nuclear power aren’t that one goes bad every once in awhile, it’s that the cost when one goes bad are astronomical. The quake and tsunami in Japan were very unlikely, and they have had bad results. A few more mistakes in the pile and you could have a very real issue that could hammer-fuck hundreds of thousands of people. Also, equating a multiple murderer with Al Sharpton shows that you have serious trouble with your analogies. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/117 "2011-03-15T03:52:16Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > First off, I’m pro-nuclear, but that argument is asinine. The problems of nuclear power aren’t that one goes bad every once in awhile, it’s that the cost when one goes bad are astronomical. The quake and tsunami in Japan were very unlikely, and they have had bad results. A few more mistakes in the pile and you could have a very real issue that could hammer-fuck hundreds of thousands of people. Point taken. > [@](#): > > Also, equating a multiple murderer with Al Sharpton shows that you have serious trouble with your analogies. Without derailing the thread Al Sharpton incited a riot resulting in the murder of several people. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/118 "2011-03-15T03:58:52Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > First off, I’m pro-nuclear, but that argument is asinine. The problems of nuclear power aren’t that one goes bad every once in awhile, it’s that the cost when one goes bad are astronomical. Wait a minute… what’s “astronomical,” exactly? Chernobyl is the only real disaster we have had at a nuclear power plant, and the upper estimate as resulting casualities is about four thousand, and thatreally is an upper end guess. I will be very surprised indeed if the Japanese plant kills four thousand people. Actually, I’ll be surprised if it kills four hundred. It might not kill four. By way of comparison, the Bhopal disaster killed about 15,000 people. But I don’t hear anyone suggesting they stop making methyl isocyanate. I don’t want to sound flippant about the deaths of four thousand people, or even four, but engaging in industry and commerce kills people. If we are going to create energy, or for that matter do or build just about anything, people are going to die. We’ve become better at controlling that sort of thing but they’ll die all the same. Coal mining’s killed more Americans than the Vietnam War, and it kills thousands of people around the world every year to this day. Just driving our cars kills thousands upon thousand of people. In the grand sceheme of things, cruel though this may sound, nuclear power has been a pretty good tradeoff. So far in all the history of nuclear power generation almost all the deaths were the result of the criminal ineptitude of a corrupt and evil dictatorship that had more technology than ethics. Other than that it’s been remarkably safe. Where is the evidence that astronomical carnage and destruction is a likely, or hell, even reasonably possible, event? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/119 "2011-03-15T04:05:14Z")
Coal plants are not safe for those in the area surrounding the plant. But I am sure we all agree they could be made a lot cleaner. But the energy providers have enough political influence that they don’t have to. Why should we not expect a company to do the right thing and clean up their acts? Why do we accept that a company will do everything it can to avoid regulation and cleaning them up? Originally we gave charters to a company. if they did not act in the public interest their charter could be revoked., Lets go back to those days. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/120 "2011-03-15T04:17:47Z")
> **[HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News](https://www.huffpost.com/?err_code=404&err_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2011%2F03%2F14%2Fjapan-nuclear-plant-explosion_n_835712.html)** > > Read the latest headlines, news stories, and opinion from Politics, Entertainment, Life, Perspectives, and more. I guess I was wrong. The plants are all under control and no leakage. the people have nothing to worry about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647.md?page=7)