# Still support nuke power plants? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647 "2011-03-14T11:56:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/121 "2011-03-15T04:19:03Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Still okay with nukes. To be honest, I’m more confident than I was before. I would like to back off of my previous statement, as events seem to have developed [not necessarily](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-alvarez/meltdowns-japan-earthquake_b_835121.html) [to our advantage](http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Possible_damage_at_Fukushima_Daiichi_2_1503111.html). ---
**Author:** ![randy054](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/54ee81/32.png) [@randy054](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randy054)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/122 "2011-03-15T04:35:33Z")
According to MSNBC the spent fuel rods are now on fire at reactor 4. People are being warned to stay indoors out to a 30km radius to avoid acute radiation effects. ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/123 "2011-03-15T04:36:59Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > That said - there are recent reports of a problem with waste stored at the Fukushima site. That is certainly worrisome and elevates the seriousness of the situation if true. There’s a couple of things I’m not at all happy about at the moment. A cutaway of the Mark 1 reactor is shown [here](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:BWR_Mark_I_Containment,_cutaway.jpg), and a simplified version [here.](http://www.ucsusa.org/nuclear_power/nuclear_power_risk/safety/concerns-about-relying-on.html) The top part with the steel frame and rail crane looks very much like the upper buildings blown apart on reactors 1 and 3, and if I’m reading that cutaway correctly, those are spent fuel cooling pools around the reactor containment. Those pools could be open to the air and exposed now, which isn’t necessarily a problem but has a lot of bad potential. The second problem is that there have been loud noises (“reports of an explosion”) at the no. 2 reactor, and the pressure in the wetwell torus (see my second link) has dropped from 3 bar to atmospheric. That suggests that the wetwell has cracked or otherwise failed, and that gives a route for contaminated cooling water to exit the primary containment. It may not be that bad - there may have been a failure depressurising the wetwell into the drywell for example - but it’s not a good sign. ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/124 "2011-03-15T04:42:32Z")
> [@randy054](#): > > According to MSNBC the spent fuel rods are now on fire at reactor 4. People are being warned to stay indoors out to a 30km radius to avoid acute radiation effects. Highly unlikely. Reactor 4 had been shut down for other reasons long before the quake hit. There has been a fire at reactor 4 that is now out, but it wasn’t very likely to have been a fuel rod fire. [http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS\_Possible\_damage\_at\_Fukushima\_Daiichi\_2\_1503111.html](http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Possible_damage_at_Fukushima_Daiichi_2_1503111.html) ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/125 "2011-03-15T04:48:29Z")
[Unit 2 isn’t looking good](http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Loss_of_coolant_at_Fukushima_Daiichi_2_1403113.html). > [@](#): > > Serious damage to the reactor core of Fukushima Daiichi 2 seems likely after coolant was apparently lost for a period. Seawater is again being injected, but coolant level is unknown. > [@](#): > > The Japan Atomic Industry Forum reported back statements from the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) saying that Tepco made a notification at 8.50pm that some fuel rods were presumed broken, based on radiation detected. ---
**Author:** ![randy054](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/54ee81/32.png) [@randy054](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randy054)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/126 "2011-03-15T04:49:18Z")
> [@matt](#): > > Highly unlikely. Reactor 4 had been shut down for other reasons long before the quake hit. There has been a fire at reactor 4 that is now out, but it wasn’t very likely to have been a fuel rod fire. [http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS\_Possible\_damage\_at\_Fukushima\_Daiichi\_2\_1503111.html](http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Possible_damage_at_Fukushima_Daiichi_2_1503111.html) I know it was not operating, but I heard word that it was being used to store spent fuel rods. Unable to verify it at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/127 "2011-03-15T04:55:20Z")
Even should the worst happen (which cannot be as bad as Chernobyl) I think nuclear is still the way to go. God forbid we ever try widespread [hydroelectri](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajont_Dam)c - the humanity! ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/128 "2011-03-15T05:12:21Z")
[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html?\_r=1](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html?_r=1) NYT article putting it past Three Mile Island and on the way to who knows. ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/129 "2011-03-15T05:12:55Z")
> [@randy054](#): > > I know it was not operating, but I heard word that it was being used to store spent fuel rods. > > Unable to verify it at the moment. Even if it was, fuel rods are pellets of metal oxide in a zirconium alloy tube. They are not readily flammable. I suppose if the cooling pool was empty and the fuel rods were freshly removed so they could still really heat up from decay, the zircalloy might theoretically get hot enough to burn, but I doubt it. Despite the phrase “fuel rod fire” and the associated “Chernobyl on steroids” being hot on the Internet at the moment, alledgedly a quote from Arnie Gundersen of Fairewinds Associates, I’ve seen nothing to convince me that fuel rods can actually catch fire. The possibilty just doesn’t seem to be on the radar. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/130 "2011-03-15T05:13:08Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html?\_r=1](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html?_r=1) > NYT article putting it past Three Mile Island and on the way to who knows. Nobody died at Three Mile Island. So that’s not far to go. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/131 "2011-03-15T05:23:50Z")
> [@matt](#): > > Even if it was, fuel rods are pellets of metal oxide in a zirconium alloy tube. They are not readily flammable. I suppose if the cooling pool was empty and the fuel rods were freshly removed so they could still really heat up from decay, the zircalloy might theoretically get hot enough to burn, but I doubt it. Despite the phrase “fuel rod fire” and the associated “Chernobyl on steroids” being hot on the Internet at the moment, alledgedly a quote from Arnie Gundersen of Fairewinds Associates, I’ve seen nothing to convince me that fuel rods can actually catch fire. The possibilty just doesn’t seem to be on the radar. [This](http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11263&page=38#) appears to be the basis for people’s spent-fuel worries; well past my ability to evaluate. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/132 "2011-03-15T05:28:52Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Nobody died at Three Mile Island. So that’s not far to go. Again not true. There was lots of people in the area with lukemias, cancers and other genetic problems. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/133 "2011-03-15T05:38:52Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Again not true. There was lots of people in the area with lukemias, cancers and other genetic problems. I am sure you have a reputable cite for this. Or any cite. ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/134 "2011-03-15T05:41:14Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > [This](http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11263&page=38#) appears to be the basis for people’s spent-fuel worries; well past my ability to evaluate. I found quite a nice discussion from a couple of years ago on another board: [Nuclear Power Cooling Pond | Survivalist Forum](http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=88072) There are three cites for what would happen if a catastrophic cooling pool fire broke out, and they are sobering, IF fuel rods can be induced to burn like magnesium. OTOH there is another cite for actual testing of zircalloy tubes, electrically heated to up to 1500 deg C, with air blown past them. The zircalloy oxidises but it never burst into flame, even at that temperature. I don’t think you get a fire; I think at worst you get a heap of zirconium oxide mixed with uranium oxide pellets at the bottom of your empty pool. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/135 "2011-03-15T05:42:16Z")
I’ve never been pro-nuke, but I’m not anti-nuke either. I don’t trust people to do the right thing. Not anybody in particular, but these plants are built to last a long time, and that means relying on people to maintain the necessary level of safety past the foreseeable future. Even with today’s events, coal is still a worse alternative. The only really irresponsible approach to selecting the means of supplying power would failing to pursue alternatives. If they don’t pan out, I will grudgingly accept nuclear over coal, and oil too. This is just a choose your poison situation. Does anyone know how to rate a nuclear plant between the minimum and maximum levels of safety? I’d be interested how many nuclear plants world wide would fall below some reasonable threshold, and how far has any plant gone to maximize safety? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/136 "2011-03-15T05:44:43Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > I am sure you have a reputable cite for this. Or any cite. I’m sure he’s right. It would be unlikely that lots of people around TMI did not have “lukemias, cancers and other genetic problems”. I don’t know if any of them can be attributed to the incident at the nuclear plant though. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/137 "2011-03-15T05:49:34Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > I am sure you have a reputable cite for this. Or any cite. [People Died at Three Mile Island | HuffPost Impact](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/harvey-wasserman/people-died-at-three-mile_b_179588.html) Of course I do. But nuke fans reject anything that is negative. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/138 "2011-03-15T05:50:03Z")
> [@matt](#): > > I found quite a nice discussion from a couple of years ago on another board: [Nuclear Power Cooling Pond | Survivalist Forum](http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=88072) > > There are three cites for what would happen if a catastrophic cooling pool fire broke out, and they are sobering, IF fuel rods can be induced to burn like magnesium. OTOH there is another cite for actual testing of zircalloy tubes, electrically heated to up to 1500 deg C, with air blown past them. The zircalloy oxidises but it never burst into flame, even at that temperature. I don’t think you get a fire; I think at worst you get a heap of zirconium oxide mixed with uranium oxide pellets at the bottom of your empty pool. In any case, per [here](http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/03/14/6268351-clearing-up-nuclear-questions) it looks like it would take a full week for the water to boil off, if indeed it is in the process of boiling off, so not an immediate concern. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/139 "2011-03-15T05:54:54Z")
[http://www.alternet.org/environment/135278/people\_died\_because\_of\_the\_three\_mile\_island\_nuclear\_accident,\_why\_won’t\_corporate\_media\_admit\_it\_/](http://www.alternet.org/environment/135278/people_died_because_of_the_three_mile_island_nuclear_accident,_why_won't_corporate_media_admit_it_/) Another refutation to nobody died at TMI. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647/140 "2011-03-15T06:04:00Z")
> [@matt](#): > > I found quite a nice discussion from a couple of years ago on another board: [Nuclear Power Cooling Pond | Survivalist Forum](http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=88072) > > There are three cites for what would happen if a catastrophic cooling pool fire broke out, and they are sobering, IF fuel rods can be induced to burn like magnesium. OTOH there is another cite for actual testing of zircalloy tubes, electrically heated to up to 1500 deg C, with air blown past them. The zircalloy oxidises but it never burst into flame, even at that temperature. I don’t think you get a fire; I think at worst you get a heap of zirconium oxide mixed with uranium oxide pellets at the bottom of your empty pool. Did not see a cite to the actual test on the linked thread; just someone saying a buddy of his would email him later & he would post. Googling “zircalloy tubes 1500 c tests” got me well out of my depth immediately. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/still-support-nuke-power-plants/574647.md?page=8)