# Stock Markets, Tariffs, Coronavirus **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2020, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451 "2020-02-24T21:02:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/121 "2020-03-09T20:55:06Z")
For a moment I read that as Trump calling for Moe, Larry and Curly. What could go wrong by getting Dr Howard, Dr Fine and Dr Howard on the case? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/122 "2020-03-09T21:13:07Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > For a moment I read that as Trump calling for Moe, Larry and Curly. > > What could go wrong by getting Dr Howard, Dr Fine and Dr Howard on the case? 🙂 I may have added the Curly in there for exactly that reason. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/123 "2020-03-09T21:16:19Z")
The emergency steps suggested will be a cut in the corporate tax rate and in the individual withholding rate. The latter gives people more money to spend. This makes them feel good and might help Trump be reelected. Of course next April when taxes are due, they’ll find out they’ve been under-withheld and owe taxes. This will be after the election though so that’s not a problem … for Trump and the Pubs. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/124 "2020-03-09T21:53:47Z")
I will consider this downturn and the trashing of my retirement plans to have been well worth it, if and only if this ends with prominent heads on pikes outside the gates of Pennsylvania Ave. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/125 "2020-03-09T22:01:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m seeing signs the Trump administration is taking things seriously: they’re sending [Mnuchin, Curly, and Kudlow to talk with Republicans tomorrow about a relief package.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/03/09/markets-economy-coronavirus/?hpid=hp_hp-bignews3_markets-liveblog-ticker%3Aprime-time%2Fpromo&itid=hp_hp-bignews3_markets-liveblog-ticker%3Aprime-time%2Fpromo#link-DQ7SQ6OBYZCJFGFY4UBTKJDPFE) > > Now call me crazy, but wouldn’t now be the time FOR SOME BIPARTISAN MOTHERFUCKING COOPERATION? > > If in the midst of a pandemic and an oil war that’s crashing the stock market, you should be able to set aside your partisan differences and convene a meeting with both parties. > > If now’s not the time for compromise, we’re fucked. Now’s the time for Trump to double down, Blame Obama and then go golfing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/126 "2020-03-09T22:49:04Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I will consider this downturn and the trashing of my retirement plans to have been well worth it, if and only if this ends with prominent heads on pikes outside the gates of Pennsylvania Ave. :eek: I hope this is a figure of speech. You woudn’t ACTUALLY throw your retirement plans into the trashcan, would you? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/127 "2020-03-09T23:14:29Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > The emergency steps suggested will be a cut in the corporate tax rate and in the individual withholding rate. The latter gives people more money to spend. This makes them feel good and might help Trump be reelected. Of course next April when taxes are due, they’ll find out they’ve been under-withheld and owe taxes. This will be after the election though so that’s not a problem … for Trump and the Pubs. Right, a payroll tax cut - especially helpful for hourly wage earners who are staying at home. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/128 "2020-03-10T03:41:33Z")
Guys, I gotta tell ya, I’m becoming increasingly convinced that the GOP and the entire conservative approach to economics just isn’t capable of managing a post-slavery economy. #1 in largest percentage drops to the DJIA #1 in largest point drops in the DJIA Our Greatest Recession Our Greatest Depression … all a result of GOP policies. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/129 "2020-03-10T05:20:37Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I will consider this downturn and the trashing of my retirement plans to have been well worth it, if and only if this ends with prominent heads on pikes outside the gates of Pennsylvania Ave. Unless you are retiring very soon, and if you still have a job, keep buying. I did in 2008 and was damn glad I did. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/130 "2020-03-10T05:26:28Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > DJIA closed down 2,013 points @ 23,851. > > Guys, I think DOW 25,000 is in play again! > > #Winning We’re back to September 2017 or so. Another 4,000 points down, and we’re back to January 2017. Looking plausible. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/131 "2020-03-10T05:43:44Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > … all a result of GOP policies. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/132 "2020-03-10T08:07:32Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Unless you are retiring very soon, and if you still have a job, keep buying. I did in 2008 and was damn glad I did. I have a friend who just turned 65 and his wife was planning to retire in August. His statement on this stock market event would, in many venues, be composed entirely of asterisks or censoring bleeps. They’re not going to starve. They might very well have a much reduced standard of living. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/133 "2020-03-10T10:08:46Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Cite? History. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/134 "2020-03-10T12:20:37Z")
Dead cat bounce today. Will it stay bounced until 4pm? We will see. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/135 "2020-03-10T15:17:04Z")
You know, D’Anconia, you deserve a better response than the above flippant ‘5am-bleary-eyed-check-the-phone’ reply, so here it is. Top 20 drops in the DJIA by points: [ul] [li]1 2020-03-09 23,851.02 −2,013.76 −7.79% Republican[/li][li]2 2020-02-27 25,766.64 −1,190.95 −4.42% Republican[/li][li]3 2018-02-05 24,345.75 −1,175.21 −4.60% Republican[/li][li]4 2018-02-08 23,860.46 −1,032.89 −4.15% Republican[/li][li]5 2020-02-24 27,960.80 −1,031.61 −3.56% Republican[/li][li]6 2020-03-05 26,121.28 −969.58 −3.58% Republican[/li][li]7 2020-02-25 27,081.36 −879.44 −3.15% Republican[/li][li]8 2018-10-10 25,598.74 −831.83 −3.15% Republican[/li][li]9 2019-08-14 25,479.42 −800.49 −3.05% Republican[/li][li]10 2018-12-04 25,027.07 −799.36 −3.10% Republican[/li][li]11 2020-03-03 25,917.41 −785.91 −2.94% Republican[/li][li]12 2008-09-29 10,365.45 −777.68 −6.98% Republican[/li][li]13 2019-08-05 25,717.74 −767.27 −2.90% Republican[/li][li]14 2008-10-15 8,577.91 −733.08 −7.87% Republican[/li][li]15 2018-03-22 23,957.89 −724.42 −2.93% Republican[/li][li]16 2001-09-17 8,920.70 −684.81 −7.13% Republican[/li][li]17 2008-12-01 8,149.09 −679.95 −7.70% Republican[/li][li]18 2008-10-09 8,579.19 −678.92 −7.33% Republican[/li][li]19 2018-02-02 25,520.96 −665.75 −2.54% Republican[/li][li]20 2019-01-03 22,686.22 −660.02 −2.83% Republican[/li][/ul] Now, points are a dumb way to do this, because a 1,000 point drop on Dow 25,000 is nowhere near as bad as 25 points on Dow 200, so…. Top 20 drops in the DJIA by percentage: [ul] [li]1 1987-10-19 1,738.74 −508.00 −22.61% Republican[/li][li]2 1929-10-28 260.64 −38.33 −12.82% Republican[/li][li]3 1929-10-29 230.07 −30.57 −11.73% Republican[/li][li]4 1929-11-06 232.13 −25.55 −9.92% Republican[/li][li]5 1899-12-18 58.27 −5.57 −8.72% Republican[/li][li]6 1932-08-12 63.11 −5.79 −8.40% Republican[/li][li]7 1907-03-14 76.23 −6.89 −8.29% Republican[/li][li]8 1987-10-26 1,793.93 −156.83% Republican[/li][li]9 2008-10-15 8,577.91 −733.08% Republican[/li][li]10 1933-07-21 88.71 −7.55 −7.84% Democrat[/li][li]11 2020-03-09 23,851.02 −2,013.76% Republican[/li][li]12 1937-10-18 125.73 −10.57 −7.75% Democrat[/li][li]13 2008-12-01 8,149.09 −679.95% Republican[/li][li]14 2008-10-09 8,579.19 −678.92% Republican[/li][li]15 1917-02-01 88.52 −6.91 −7.24% Democrat[/li][li]16 1997-10-27 7,161.14 −554.26% Democrat[/li][li]17 1932-10-05 66.07 −5.09 −7.15% Republican[/li][li]18 2001-09-17 8,920.70 −684.81% Republican[/li][li]19 1931-09-24 107.79 −8.20 −7.07% Republican[/li][li]20 1933-07-20 96.26 −7.32 −7.07% Democrat[/li][/ul] A little more balanced, 15-5 but note the Republicans holds the top **nine** spots (#Winning). The Democratic losses are Great Depression related (3), our entry into WW1 (1), and the 1997 ruble devaluation and the resulting Long Term Capital Management bailout (1). … and before you respond with “Well, 6 of the Republican ones are GD related too”, I would like to note that the Republicans directed American economic policy from 1921-1933, so frankly, the Great Depression can be placed squarely on their shoulders, just as the Great Recession can be as well. (Going further, the Panic of 1873 and the subsequent depression was also during a string of Republican administrations (Grant (1869-1877), Hayes (1877-1881)), and I’m happy to discuss the causes of this, but very few are interested in 19th-century economic policy, alas.) **But, you know, movements in the DJIA are not exactly proof of my claim… just indicators… so let’s take another approach, shall we?** Since 1948 the Federal Reserve has published the [Z1 report](https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/), entitled “Financial Accounts of the United States”. This report, for all intents and purposes, measures the _balance sheet_ of our country to determine ([line 31 in Appendix B1](https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/20191212/html/b1.htm)) the total National Net Worth of the US of A. And, as we all should’ve learned in high school: Net Worth = (Assets – Liabilities) So you take the complete value of the US’s assets (human capital, physical capital, stocks, land, etc) subtract all of our debt (government, corporate, civilian), and you have the National Net Worth. And I prefer this yardstick because the growth of _wealth_ is what’s truly important. GDP is a far more commonly used figure, but [analogy alert!] GDP measures income while the Z1 report measures wealth. Lord knows I’ve heard a variant of this a million times, even on the SDMB: You’re better off making $50k a year and saving $1k than you are making $100k a year and spending $110k. “GDP” wise, person 2 is doing better, but “Net Worth” wise, person 1 is doing better. [/analogy alert!] Fortunately for us, I’ve reviewed 70 years of Z1.B1 reports, adjusted for inflation (2015 dollars), and correlated it to Presidential Administrations. And what did I find? That Republicans just _suck_ at creating wealth, that… with the exception of Eisenhower… the party is addicted to debt-fueled growth, and while this addiction might boost GDP and make it _appear_ the country is growing wealthier, in fact, it isn’t. **Post 1948 Presidential Administrations ranked by Year-over-year compounded increases in National Net Worth as determined by the Federal Reserve’s Financial Accounts of the United States:** [ul] [li]1. Clinton, 5.08%, Dem[/li][li]2. Eisenhower, 5.06%, Rep[/li][li]3. Truman, 4.94%, Dem[/li][li]4. Johnson, 4.56%, Dem[/li][li]5. Kennedy, 4.46%, Dem[/li][li]6. Obama, 4.27%, Dem[/li][li]7. Ford, 3.38%, Rep[/li][li]8. Reagan, 2.85%, Rep (! Remember what I said about debt-fueled growth? You can lie to the GDP, but you can’t lie to the NNW!)[/li][li]9. Carter, 2.42%, Dem[/li][li]10. Nixon, 1.22%, Rep[/li][li]11. GHW Bush, 0.94%, Rep[/li][li]12. GW Bush, .14%, Rep[/ul][/li] (Disclaimer: Partial data for the Truman Administration (1944-1948 was not measured), no data for the Trump Administration) That last is amazing – Under Bush2, the total net worth of this country grew at an annual compounded rate of .14%! Not 14%, not 1.4%, but .14%! And his Dad wasn’t much better, tbh. So… politics aside… there is strong correlative evidence published by the Federal Reserve which proves that Republican Administrations are horrible, simply horrible, at creating wealth. I stand by my statement: The Republican party doesn’t really know how to manage a post-1860, post-slavery economy. They just don’t, and we’re seeing it (AGAIN) today. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/136 "2020-03-10T15:33:26Z")
Looks like the dead-cat bounce lasted about two hours. After “roaring” to a near-800 point rise, the DJIA is down $77. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/137 "2020-03-10T16:09:11Z")
What is the administration’s plan? Tax cuts, of course! Cut the payroll tax and gut the Social Security trust fund! What could go wrong? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/138 "2020-03-10T16:09:51Z")
Broke: Let’s coordinate a drop in oil prices to destroy Russia. Woke: Let’s coordinate a drop in oil prices to destroy Texas. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/139 "2020-03-10T16:18:41Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What is the administration’s plan? Tax cuts, of course! Cut the payroll tax and gut the Social Security trust fund! What could go wrong? Oh, no. It’s not that simple. They’re also going to bailout the vacation industry. Which includes hotels. Especially hotels owned by a two-bit con artist cum President. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/140 "2020-03-10T16:20:34Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Fortunately for us, I’ve reviewed 70 years of Z1.B1 reports, adjusted for inflation (2015 dollars), and correlated it to Presidential Administrations. And what did I find? > > That Republicans just _suck_ at creating wealth, that… with the exception of Eisenhower… the party is addicted to debt-fueled growth, and while this addiction might boost GDP and make it _appear_ the country is growing wealthier, in fact, it isn’t. That whole post was fascinating. Thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451.md?page=8)