# Stock Markets, Tariffs, Coronavirus **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2020, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451 "2020-02-24T21:02:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/141 "2020-03-10T16:33:38Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Looks like the dead-cat bounce lasted about two hours. After “roaring” to a near-800 point rise, the DJIA is down $77. And now it’s up $169. Do you have an actual factual point to make? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/142 "2020-03-10T16:37:44Z")
Post 135 for facts. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/143 "2020-03-10T16:53:43Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > And now it’s up $169. Do you have an actual factual point to make? Do you? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/144 "2020-03-10T17:20:49Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > And now it’s up $169. Do you have an actual factual point to make? **JohnT** goes to the work of composing a post that reviews over 70 years of economic history. You “refute” him by mentioning the latest 1-hour fluctuation in DJIA. :smack: Have you considered seeking a job in newscasting? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/145 "2020-03-10T17:32:53Z")
He already has one. Almost always lands them on the porch. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/146 "2020-03-10T18:13:20Z")
That was worthy of Elucidator. Good job! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/147 "2020-03-10T19:31:13Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I have a friend who just turned 65 and his wife was planning to retire in August. His statement on this stock market event would, in many venues, be composed entirely of asterisks or censoring bleeps. > > They’re not going to starve. They might very well have a much reduced standard of living. Hope he has some bond funds, some of which are doing really well. I had a friend who worked for IBM, and who got laid off near retirement just as IBM stock cratered. He had his entire 401K in IBM stock. Ouch. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/148 "2020-03-10T19:36:06Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > That Republicans just _suck_ at creating wealth, that… with the exception of Eisenhower… the party is addicted to debt-fueled growth, and while this addiction might boost GDP and make it _appear_ the country is growing wealthier, in fact, it isn’t. > > **Post 1948 Presidential Administrations ranked by Year-over-year compounded increases in National Net Worth as determined by the Federal Reserve’s Financial Accounts of the United States:** > > [ul] > [li]1. Clinton, 5.08%, Dem[/li][li]2. Eisenhower, 5.06%, Rep[/li][/ul] We all know Ike was a Rino. Look at the tax rates during his term! Awesome post! Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/149 "2020-03-10T20:21:39Z")
Guys, apparently all the bailouts floated by the Trump Administration, including … Cruise ships … Hotels … Airlines … Fracking companies … The Oil Industry … the shipping industry has raised the DJIA by 1,100+ points. Again: **Americas economic system is socialism for the wealthy and connected, capitalism for everyone else**. You may not get a check, but your employer **will** get a payroll tax deduction which should… what was the term… trickle down to you. (Please note that Trumps remarks today were all about the economic impact, and nary a word about the human impact. This, D’anconia, is why him… and his ideology… are monstrous.) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/150 "2020-03-10T22:19:19Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Guys, apparently all the bailouts floated by the Trump Administration, including > > … Cruise ships > … Hotels > … Airlines > … Fracking companies > … The Oil Industry > … the shipping industry > > has raised the DJIA by 1,100+ points. > > Again: **Americas economic system is socialism for the wealthy and connected, capitalism for everyone else**. This is a bit off topic, but… … I am perpetually amazed at the pearl-clutching of conservatives at the rising popularity of socialism. I am amazed despite the fact that _I_ am a dyed-in-the-wool believer in capitalism and free markets, but the resurgence of interest in socialism and even communism is totally understandable; it’s because of pigs like Donald Trump and his lackeys. It’s because of utter horseshit like the 2008/2009 fiscal crisis where rich people made out like bandits and poor people suffered and the government shrugged its shoulders. When you have rich pigs just shamelessly looting the working taxpayer right out in the open, it is absolutely, totally understandable that people would start to look at alternative systems. It would be frankly mystifying if they didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/151 "2020-03-11T14:54:38Z")
Tired: Socializing Profits Wired: Socializing Losses The stock market experts which worried about Bernie Sanders’ ‘socialism’ are now begging for socialism in the form of corporate rescue packages. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/152 "2020-03-11T15:29:01Z")
I support bailouts for airlines and cruiselines for much the same reason that I support mandatory sick leave for workers: it removes the incentive to be stupid. Airlines and cruiselines should receive aid, contingent on their offering generous refund policies until the pandemic has subsided. Otherwise, they’ll almost certainly be assholes about refunds, which will pressure people into using the trips they’ve already paid for, which will spread the disease further. I’m not normally a fan of funneling government money to big companies, but I’m a pragmatist, not an idealist. In cases like this, we do what we need to do, even if it means rewarding people who don’t need a reward. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/153 "2020-03-11T17:29:48Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Guys, apparently all the bailouts floated by the Trump Administration, including > > … Cruise ships > … Hotels > … Airlines > … Fracking companies > … The Oil Industry > … the shipping industry > > has raised the DJIA by 1,100+ points. > > Again: **Americas economic system is socialism for the wealthy and connected, capitalism for everyone else**. > > You may not get a check, but your employer **will** get a payroll tax deduction which should… what was the term… trickle down to you. > > (Please note that Trumps remarks today were all about the economic impact, and nary a word about the human impact. This, D’anconia, is why him… and his ideology… are monstrous.) Darn. Down 1,145 as I type this. Looks like the Dow is trickling down on the Fed and the Trump Administration. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/154 "2020-03-11T20:02:11Z")
It’s all happening so fast, and swinging so wildly from one day to the next, that it’s really hard to assess and forecast what the economic damage will be. Meanwhile, we’re just now getting around to testing people. South Korea tests more people in a single day than we have during the entire epidemic. Countries like South Korea, Germany, and others can test people in their cars; in the US, by contrast, people have waited for the tests, they’ve gone to be tested only told they don’t fit the official criteria for testing eligibility, and worst of all many healthcare workers are dealing with potentially ill patients without wearing any protection or having any protocols on how to manage potential cases - there is no uniform protocol on how to deal with COVID-19! **I cannot emphasize just how jaw-droppingly shocking and dangerous this situation is about to become.** - because when the healthcare workers themselves get taken down with this illness, the healthcare system will become overwhelmed. And yet, just look at the sports pages tonight, tomorrow night, and the next several weeks and life is going to continue as planned with tens of thousands of people sitting right next to each other, oblivious to whether the person next to them is sneezing or coughing or picking his nose. And when the game is over many will ride home in Ubers or the local transit system. And they’ll presumably go back to work the next day. If you think the markets are down now, wait until cases spike in Washington, DC, New York City, Chicago, and LA - that’s when the fun really begins. I don’t think our healthcare system is prepared for what’s about to happen, and I don’t think our economic policymakers are either. We’re in for a rough ride, folks. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/155 "2020-03-11T20:16:35Z")
As I noted in another thread: “If the US markets are in free-fall now, bond and credit markets tightening up, while 99% of Americans still go about their normal lives… when this sentiment changes, holy hell will be wreaked on these same markets, making the bailouts promised yesterday appear as band aids.” HOWEVER… Trump’s signature accomplishment… not fucking up the Obama rally… is officially over. Today, 3-11-2020, marks the beginnings of the official TrumpSlump with the DJIA closing down 20.3% since February putting it officially in bear market territory. > **[Dow enters bear market after coronavirus declared pandemic](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/03/11/markets-economy-today-oil-coronavirus/)** > > The blue chip index dives nearly 1,500 points as a record, 11-year stock rally comes to a close. > [@](#): > > Wall Street went into a deep slump Wednesday, falling so far and so fast that the Dow Jones industrial average officially tipped into a bear market, ending a record 11-year stock rally > > The bear market reflects a 20 percent fall from record highs, which the Dow hit less than a month ago, and came after the coronavirus officially became a pandemic. RIP Obama’s Bull Market: 3-09-2009 - 3-11-2020. Official cause of death: Republicans and their voters. (See post 135.) ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/156 "2020-03-11T22:03:45Z")
Boeing just drew down their credit lines. In English, they took out the maximum cash advance that their card agreement would allow: $13.8 billion. > **[Boeing will cash out $13.8 billion loan and freeze hiring amid coronavirus...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/03/11/boeing-will-cash-out-138-billion-loan-amid-market-turmoil/)** > > Market volatility related to the global spread of the novel coronavirus is creating new risks for the company at a time when its business is already in a historically fragile state. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/157 "2020-03-11T22:06:40Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Boeing just drew down their credit lines. > > In English, they took out the maximum cash advance that their card agreement would allow: $13.8 billion. > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/03/11/boeing-will-cash-out-138-billion-loan-amid-market-turmoil](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/03/11/boeing-will-cash-out-138-billion-loan-amid-market-turmoil) Is there any sort of historical precedent for what that means? In other words have other very large companies done that in the past and what happened next? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/158 "2020-03-11T22:11:31Z")
Yes, it’s generally a bad sign, signalling that the company is in major financial trouble. I can find examples of this in 2008, but would have to go home and read some books. I’m thinking Bear Stearns and/or Lehman Brothers did the same thing… oh! Enron did this, but not in 2008… and there are some others. The only time it was done successfully (in my memory) was Ford in 2008, who effectively mortgaged the entire company as to not be put under receivership ala GM. It worked, but Ford is still struggling… even before this crash, their stock traded below $10. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/159 "2020-03-11T22:26:53Z")
Thanks. Interesting times. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451/160 "2020-03-11T22:38:39Z")
The NCAA announced the no fans attending March Madness games. World Health Organization just declared covid-19 a pandemic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stock-markets-tariffs-coronavirus/848451.md?page=9)