# Stoid, Are You Still Confident that You Know a Lot about Diet and Obesity? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 12, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100 "2013-02-12T18:34:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/201 "2013-06-17T19:49:30Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Also physical. Just as addicts to alcohol are battling a physical addiction (in addition to a psychological one), it is equally true that people who have been fat are fighting physical appetite stimulators that the never-fat don’t have to deal with. Well I agree that the line between the psychological and the physical is blurry. There seem to be hormones which affect one’s urge to eat. > [@](#): > > There is also some evidence that it is a lot easier for the formerly-fat than the thin to put on weight, on the same diet and exercise regimen. Yes, but I am skeptical of this evidence since a lot of these studies of diet rely on self-reporting. > [@](#): > > I’ve said it before in other threads: when you go from normal (never fat) to fat, you add a lot of fat cells. If you then lose weight, those fat cells don’t go away, they just get smaller. And those same fat cells stimulate substances in your bloodstream, like grelins, that make you feel hunger sooner and more intensely than you would if those fat cells weren’t there. I’ve heard this theory before, and I am skeptical of it. If it were true, then why cannot obesity be cured with liposuction? ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/202 "2013-06-17T19:54:42Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I know a few people personally who lost significant amounts of fat and kept it off for years and years. I also believe that **crafter\_man** has done so. I won’t lie – it’s a constant struggle. But I would rather give up the tasty food – and not be fat – than be fat. But I’m not perfect. There are times I overeat. And I notice it in my waistline. I then cut back on my eating, and the waistline goes back to normal. Lather, rinse, repeat. Been doing this for over 20 years. I have learned that my weight is primary determined by how much I eat, not by \*what \*I eat and not by exercise. It’s strictly calories. I believe this is true for all humans. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/203 "2013-06-17T20:16:43Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’ve heard this theory before, and I am skeptical of it. If it were true, then why cannot obesity be cured with liposuction? Because traditional liposuction only removes a small fraction of the fat cells, typically in places that have the most cosmetic effect. Fat cells live throughout your body, and it is surgically risky to remove too much fat in this way. Your skepticism doesn’t really move me. You seem to want to be able to blame people unequivocally who can’t keep weight off. I don’t think this attitude helps anyone struggling with weight control any more than it helps alcoholics. People are responsible for their own actions, but at the same time they deserve acknowledgement of the very real difficulties that they face. If you want to judge people, judge them for getting fat in the first place. For me, at least, that was pure self-indulgence, for which I am paying now, and for the rest of my life. Roddy ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/204 "2013-06-17T20:24:33Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Because traditional liposuction only removes a small fraction of the fat cells, typically in places that have the most cosmetic effect. Do you happen to have a cite for this claim? > [@](#): > > Your skepticism doesn’t really move me. You seem to want to be able to blame people unequivocally who can’t keep weight off. I’m not sure where you got that from. I’ve been knocking **stoid** a bit for claiming unjustified expertise. Anyway, I’m well aware that it’s very difficult to lose weight and keep it off. > [@](#): > > If you want to judge people, judge them for getting fat in the first place. Actually, I strongly suspect that it’s the same problem in both cases. But I am eager to consider your evidence regarding liposuction. Here’s another question: Do women who undergo breast reduction surgery notice a diminishment in appetite? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/205 "2013-06-17T20:34:58Z")
[QUOTE=Rockerick Femm] It is my opinion that failure to understand this dynamic is the single biggest factor in many people’s failure to maintain their weight loss. The other biggest factor is failure to realize that keeping off significant weight loss involves a drastic change of lifestyle, including both frequent cardio exercise and what most (Western) people would regard as an abstemious diet. [/QUOTE] On your first point - if people fail to understand the effect of weight loss on their physiology, what can be done to remedy this? I mean, what behaviors would you see in response to this fact? ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/206 "2013-06-17T21:20:59Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > On your first point - if people fail to understand the effect of weight loss on their physiology, what can be done to remedy this? I mean, what behaviors would you see in response to this fact? Education and on-going support. When I lost weight it was within a medical organization that provided both of these things. While on the weight-loss path, attendance at weekly meetings was mandatory, and each meeting spent at least 30 minutes educating us. Then there was an optional maintenance program (not free, but much less than the weight loss program) that also involved weekly meetings that were more focused on support, and on keeping people focused on what they needed to do to keep the weight off. It would be great to have better nutrition education starting in grade school. Getting funding would be a challenge, of course. And I’m not talking about “eat this, don’t eat that”, but more fundamental education on how the body stores energy, how it burns energy, and how these two things balance out. That kind of thing. Our food industry is almost completely committed to the current model, however, and I really don’t see this kind o f change in education happening. Unfortunately. Roddy ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/207 "2013-06-17T21:24:40Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > No, I am happy to use the ones you offered. When I drew a distinction between (1) knowing what to eat; and (2) sticking to a diet, I was not distinguishing between knowing and doing. Because (2) entails knowledge as well. > > Either you misunderstood me or you are just playing more semantic games. > > So you deny that sticking to a diet requires knowledge? > > I guess your answer is “yes,” then? > > No, it’s correct. Using the words “success” and “failure” in the normal sense – not the special definitions you have chosen. Ummm… I guess it’s opposite day,eh? Upon seeing my honeywheat donut thread, you were sure that my eating honeywheat donuts meant that my low-carb efforts had failed and such failure had therefore undermined the things I talked about in the original thread. I have extensively answered your questions and demonstrated that any such belief was in error. How you choose to specially define what diets failing and working mean, what knowing and doing consist of, is your issue. I am confident that I have expressed myself with more than enough clarity to avoid any misunderstanding by people who have no agenda. And with that, I exit this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/208 "2013-06-17T21:30:05Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Do you happen to have a cite for this claim? Any research on liposuction will confirm this. For one thing, liposuction only removes surface fat, not deep fat deposits. ([cite, Mayo Clinic](http://www.mayoclinic.org/cosmetic-surgery/liposuction.html)) Highest amount of fat and other body liquids removed is in the neighborhood of 12 pounds ([cite](http://www.lipo.com/liposuction-information/how-much-fat-can-be-removed-by-liposuction/)). This is not all fat, and the source does not say how much is actual fat cells. No site that I could find would make even this specific a claim. Suppose it is 50% or 6 pounds. That isn’t much of a change for a 200-pound person. Your question about breast reduction is laughable. How much tissue do you think is removed? How much of that is fat? One pound? Probably less. Roddy ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/209 "2013-06-17T22:31:12Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Upon seeing my honeywheat donut thread, you were sure that my eating honeywheat donuts meant that my low-carb efforts had failed and such failure had therefore undermined the things I talked about in the original thread. That’s not true at all. Here’s what I said: > [@](#): > > I suppose one could argue Stoid deserves the benefit of the doubt. That people should assume her diet succeeded and that she has been maintaining her goal weight for some time now. That the donuts are just an occasional indulgence, always balanced off by plenty of small, healthy meals and exercise. > > But if I had to bet, I would bet otherwise. I did not express certitude. Anyway, I would say the jury is still out on your diet success. I do concede that you did better than I expected, although part of the reason I was inclined to bet against you was the fact that you disappeared for quite a while. > [@](#): > > I have extensively answered your questions and demonstrated that any such belief was in error. You’ve answered some of my questions. You’ve also engaged in a lot of evasion and semantic games. I would have been interested in knowing your response to my most recent question – whether you believe that sticking to a diet requires knowledge. You seem to think that the answer is “no,” it’s just something you are able to do or not. I suspect that’s part of the problem you have had. > [@](#): > > And with that, I exit this discussion. Goodbye, thank you for participating. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/210 "2013-06-17T23:17:12Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Highest amount of fat and other body liquids removed is in the neighborhood of 12 pounds ([cite](http://www.lipo.com/liposuction-information/how-much-fat-can-be-removed-by-liposuction/)). This is not all fat, and the source does not say how much is actual fat cells. No site that I could find would make even this specific a claim. Suppose it is 50% or 6 pounds. That isn’t much of a change for a 200-pound person. Actually your cite says that the limit is 12 pounds per session; not 12 pounds in your lifetime. It also says that liposuction is not effective as a weight loss procedure. If your hypothesis were correct, a few liposuction sessions ought to have a significant effect on your urge to eat. > [@](#): > > Your question about breast reduction is laughable. How much tissue do you think is removed? How much of that is fat? One pound? I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/211 "2013-06-17T23:46:07Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Yes, but I am skeptical of this evidence since a lot of these studies of diet rely on self-reporting. Your skepticism aside, everything that **Roderick** told you has been firmly established by extremely robust studies. The work of Columbia University’s [Rudolph Leibel](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/magazine/tara-parker-pope-fat-trap.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) is particularly salient. > [@](#): > > Leibel and his colleague Michael Rosenbaum have pioneered much of what we know about the body’s response to weight loss. For 25 years, they have meticulously tracked about 130 individuals for six months or longer at a stretch. The subjects reside at their research clinic where every aspect of their bodies is measured. Body fat is determined by bone-scan machines. A special hood monitors oxygen consumption and carbon-dioxide output to precisely measure metabolism. Calories burned during digestion are tracked. Exercise tests measure maximum heart rate, while blood tests measure hormones and brain chemicals. Muscle biopsies are taken to analyze their metabolic efficiency. > > […] > > Eventually, the Columbia subjects are placed on liquid diets of 800 calories a day until they lose 10 percent of their body weight. Once they reach the goal, they are subjected to another round of intensive testing as they try to maintain the new weight. > > […] > > The research shows that the changes that occur after weight loss translate to a huge caloric disadvantage of about 250 to 400 calories. For instance, one woman who entered the Columbia studies at 230 pounds was eating about 3,000 calories to maintain that weight. Once she dropped to 190 pounds, losing 17 percent of her body weight, metabolic studies determined that she needed about 2,300 daily calories to maintain the new lower weight. That may sound like plenty, **but the typical 30-year-old 190-pound woman can consume about 2,600 calories to maintain her weight — 300 more calories than the woman who dieted to get there.** I mean, Christ, **brazil84**. You’ve started how many threads about obesity in your SDMB tenure? Thirty? Eighty? And yet, you have somehow managed to avoid acquiring even a modicum of knowledge on the subject. How is that even possible? Catastrophically botched cephalic liposuctions? I’m serious, I really want to know how you do this. Is it deliberate concussions? Daily autoerotic asphyxiations to the point of cerebral hypoxia, perhaps? Do you shove a rusty icepick up your nose and joggle it around in your brain tissue every time you think you might have accidentally learned some facts? You’re amazing. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/212 "2013-06-18T00:21:23Z")
> [@colander](#): > > Your skepticism aside, everything that **Roderick** told you has been firmly established by extremely robust studies. That may very well be so; I’ve never claimed to be an expert and there is good reason to be skeptical of a lot of the claims made in this area. > [@](#): > > I mean, Christ, **brazil84**. You’ve started how many threads about obesity in your SDMB tenure? Thirty? Eighty? And yet, you have somehow managed to avoid acquiring even a modicum of knowledge on the subject. Better that than to know things which aren’t so. > [@](#): > > That may sound like plenty, but the typical 30-year-old 190-pound woman can consume about 2,600 calories to maintain her weight — 300 more calories than the woman who dieted to get there. That’s not an apples to apples comparison. Someone who dieted to get to 190 was never the same kind of person as a 190 pound person who never dieted. It might very well be that some people have a tendency to get fat and that tendency is with them regardless of how much they have dieted in the past. Look, at some earlier point in her life, this individual weighed 190 pounds for the very first time. What would have happened then if she had consumed 2600 calories per day? And perhaps more importantly, did she have a stronger urge to consume food than a typical 190 pound female of her age? The study does not and cannot answer these questions. > [@](#): > > I’m serious, I really want to know how you do this. Is it deliberate concussions? It’s called critical thinking. And I don’t accept claims simply because they reflect the popular viewpoint. I’m pretty confident that if you look back more than a few decades, you will be able to find articles (and studies) which are now discredited. How are you so supremely and utterly confident that this article (and the underlying study) are correct in their conclusions? It’s much more reasonable to be skeptical. Although I will concede that the claims about muscle biopsies, if substantiated, are pretty good evidence that dieting affects metabolism. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/213 "2013-06-18T00:33:03Z")
> [@colander](#): > > Your skepticism aside, everything that **Roderick** told you has been firmly established by extremely robust studies. The work of Columbia University’s [Rudolph Leibel](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/magazine/tara-parker-pope-fat-trap.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) is particularly salient. > > I mean, Christ, **brazil84**. You’ve started how many threads about obesity in your SDMB tenure? Thirty? Eighty? And yet, you have somehow managed to avoid acquiring even a modicum of knowledge on the subject. How is that even possible? Catastrophically botched cephalic liposuctions? I’m serious, I really want to know how you do this. Is it deliberate concussions? Daily autoerotic asphyxiations to the point of cerebral hypoxia, perhaps? Do you shove a rusty icepick up your nose and joggle it around in your brain tissue every time you think you might have accidentally learned some facts? You’re amazing. :eek: :eek: Wow. My search turned up about 17 all in the last year. It is rather remarkable that it is a topic of such interest to him and yet he seems to be so much in the dark about so much basic information… ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/214 "2013-06-18T01:12:19Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > :eek: :eek: > > Wow. My search turned up about 17 all in the last year. It is rather remarkable that it is a topic of such interest to him and yet he seems to be so much in the dark about so much basic information… Welcome back. To rational people, the world is confusing. Unlike you, I don’t have all the answers figured out. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/215 "2013-06-18T01:28:34Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > That may very well be so; I’ve never claimed to be an expert and there is good reason to be skeptical of a lot of the claims made in this area. I will be blunt: somebody with as little factual knowledge as you on this topic has no business claiming “skepticism” regarding anything even remotely related to it. I can’t even come up with an insulting analogy for how incredibly ignorant you are. It’s like you were homeschooled by a pile of driftwood. Only even then I would think you’d have learned how liposuction works at some point in your life. Read a fucking book. It doesn’t even matter which one. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/216 "2013-06-18T08:54:50Z")
> [@colander](#): > > I will be blunt: somebody with as little factual knowledge as you on this topic has no business claiming “skepticism” regarding anything even remotely related to it. Please give me 3 specific examples of important pieces of factual knowledge you believe I am lacking. This should be very easy for you since I am so ignorant and you are such an expert. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/217 "2013-06-18T09:02:59Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Please give me 3 specific examples of important pieces of factual knowledge you believe I am lacking. i.e. knowledge without which I have no right to be skeptical of studies like the one mentioned above. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/218 "2013-06-18T11:25:04Z")
^ Whoa. Now you’re talking to yourself. Get a grip. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/219 "2013-06-18T11:44:46Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > ^ Whoa. Now you’re talking to yourself. Get a grip. Lol, just a clarification – missed the edit window. Thanks for your concern though. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100/220 "2013-06-18T12:18:10Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Please give me 3 specific examples of important pieces of factual knowledge you believe I am lacking. This is how it begins. There is no end. Run, **colander**. _Run_! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoid-are-you-still-confident-that-you-know-a-lot-about-diet-and-obesity/650100.md?page=12)