# Stolen Valor Act ruled unconstitutional. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2010, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721 "2010-08-19T06:06:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/141 "2011-10-24T19:31:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Disagree. I don’t know about the Medla of Honor, but there is a Purple Heart lapel pin, intended for wear on a suit jacket. There is nothing remotely inappropriate about wearing it. It appears there is a rosette but not a lapel pin, as such, for winners of the Medal of Honor: [Medal of Honor - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_of_honor) ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/142 "2011-10-24T19:50:37Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > If a guy in a bar, in civilian clothes is wearing the Medal of Honor, or the Purple Heart, then even if he got them legitimately, he’s an asshole. > > Tris So when is the appropriate time to wear a medal? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/143 "2011-10-24T19:54:31Z")
On an Olympic podium, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/144 "2011-10-24T20:12:43Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > We honor those who serve the republic’s armed forces well, even to the point of sacrificing their lives, by giving them medals. These medals carry a noteworthy measure of honor, prestige and importance among many, if not all, of the honorees’ fellow citizens. And that’s why this is a first amendment issue. Because what you’re arguing here is that the government should be enforcing a particular opinion about the worthiness of military service, and penalizing people who do not agree with that opinion (in, admittedly, a fairly narrow way). I don’t think that’s the proper role of government. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/145 "2011-10-24T21:39:27Z")
I think that what many posters are overlooking is that by lying about having a military medal, a person is implicitly inducing others to act for his benefit. Whether that is a drink, a meal on the house, or a piece of ass from the hottie at the bar, the lie is for the purpose of some benefit. Again, what speech or expression is being stifled by this law? ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/146 "2011-10-24T21:52:54Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I think that what many posters are overlooking is that by lying about having a military medal, a person is implicitly inducing others to act for his benefit. Whether that is a drink, a meal on the house, or a piece of ass from the hottie at the bar, the lie is for the purpose of some benefit. Distinct from someone having a private cause of action in civil court, you would grant the government the authority and power to outlaw _ **any** _ deviation from the truth under **any** circumstances? What if someone claims to make more money than they do in order to induce a “piece of ass” into bed, or any other bit of puffery by which they potentially could get an additional benefit. You would grant the government the ability to put that person in jail? How awfully repugnant to the core of the First Amendment. > [@](#): > > Again, what speech or expression is being stifled by this law? Well, there’s this bit: _Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech._ While not unlimited (fire in a theater, yadda yadda), mere lying for the nebulous concept of personal gain via other’s respect is far from previous exceptions and without any tangible, credible threat to civil society. If you wish to continue to put forth the idea that the government has a cognizable interest high enough to surmount the relatively epic hurdle to curtailing speech, then you either need to concede that you wish to grant the government the authority to ban lies for any similarly thin societal harm, or wholly distinguish why the practice of inflating resumes is not also within the purview of government prohibition. Or lying in a bar about any subject matter. Or embellishing any record of accomplishment. And given the brouhaha over the sanctity of marriage, distinguish it from lying to your spouse. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/147 "2011-10-24T21:53:20Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I think that what many posters are overlooking is that by lying about having a military medal, a person is implicitly inducing others to act for his benefit. Whether that is a drink, a meal on the house, or a piece of ass from the hottie at the bar, the lie is for the purpose of some benefit. > > Again, what speech or expression is being stifled by this law? If I tell a hottie at the bar that I am a movie producer looking for new talent (but actually lookin’ to get laid), I might be a jerk, but it shouldn’t be criminal. IMO. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/148 "2011-10-24T21:54:31Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I think that what many posters are overlooking is that by lying about having a military medal, a person is implicitly inducing others to act for his benefit. Whether that is a drink, a meal on the house, or a piece of ass from the hottie at the bar, the lie is for the purpose of some benefit. Using the standard that you have outlined here, do you believe that we should also prohibit the sort of lies alluded to by **jsgoddess** earlier? Should it be illegal to tell a woman in a bar that i’m a movie producer or a hedge fund manager in order to get her to have a drink with me? Should i be allowed to claim that i went to Stanford in order to convince a snobby neighbor to nominate me for a golf club membership? Should the law prohibit university students from claiming that their car broke down and prevented them from arriving at the exam on time? ETA: And **mlees** beat me by a minute! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/149 "2011-10-24T22:00:56Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > mhendo’s argument is much more compelling to me than yours is. > > Do you think falsely claiming to have won a Presidential Medal of Freedom should bear penalties? How about a Citizen’s Valor Award given by a police department? What about saying you’re an Eagle Scout? Nobel Laureate? Poet Laureate? Employee of the Month? National Merit Scholar? Dean’s List? National Honor Society? Mensa? Perfect Attendance Award? Most of those things aren’t awards granted by the government, and hence none of this applies. Anyway, we’re not talking about lying, period; the Ninth Circuit ruling is limited to wearing a medal and pretending it’s yours. Unless there is a cross-appeal, that’s all that SCOTUS will consider. You’re still free to lie about medals. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/150 "2011-10-24T22:13:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Anyway, we’re not talking about lying, period; the Ninth Circuit ruling is limited to wearing a medal and pretending it’s yours. Unless there is a cross-appeal, that’s all that SCOTUS will consider. > > You’re still free to lie about medals. Really? The [article](http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/supreme-court-to-review-free-speech-issue-on-lying-about-military-honors/2011/10/17/gIQAFh0frL_story.html) that **Elendil’s Heir** linked to in reviving this thread says: > [@](#): > > The Supreme Court said Monday that it will review whether a federal law that **makes it a crime to lie about receiving a military honor** violates free speech rights. > > \ > > [The Stolen Valor Act] allows a fine and/or a six-month prison term for someone who “falsely represents himself or herself, **verbally** or in writing, to have been awarded any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the Armed Forces of the United States.” And the guy in the case, Alvarez, was never accused of wearing a medal. He verbally introduced himself as a Medal of Honor recipient. Here is the [SCOTUSblog](http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/united-states-v-alvarez/) entry for the case. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/151 "2011-10-24T23:07:59Z")
You’re right. I misread something I posted the first time we did this. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/152 "2011-10-25T00:12:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You’re right. I misread something I posted the first time we did this. Fair enough. Let me ask you something, then. When you said, in your previous post, that “You’re still free to lie about medals,” this seemed to imply that you think that there is an important difference between wearing fake medals, on the one hand, and just lying about having won them, on the other. Do you think that? And if so, do you think that a law that criminalizes something that is just a verbal claim, like the Stolen Valor Act does, is a good law? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/153 "2011-10-25T00:42:11Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Using the standard that you have outlined here, do you believe that we should also prohibit the sort of lies alluded to by **jsgoddess** earlier? > > Should it be illegal to tell a woman in a bar that i’m a movie producer or a hedge fund manager in order to get her to have a drink with me? Should i be allowed to claim that i went to Stanford in order to convince a snobby neighbor to nominate me for a golf club membership? Should the law prohibit university students from claiming that their car broke down and prevented them from arriving at the exam on time? > > ETA: And **mlees** beat me by a minute! My position is no, I don’t believe that those lies should be illegal, nor do I support the Stolen Valor Act. However, I don’t see a constitutional problem with these laws. The laws don’t stifle the expression of any type of protected idea. There is no constitutional right to spread misinformation, especially misinformation likely to induce people to act to their detriment. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/154 "2011-10-25T02:19:25Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Do you think that? And if so, do you think that a law that criminalizes something that is just a verbal claim, like the Stolen Valor Act does, is a good law? Yes, I think there’s a difference. I have a problem with the law to the extent that it penalizes pure speech. I have no problem with the provisions of the law relating to actual physical medals. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/155 "2011-10-25T13:54:46Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > There is no constitutional right to spread misinformation, especially misinformation likely to induce people to act to their detriment. The Westboro Baptist Church manages it just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/156 "2011-10-25T14:38:40Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > The Westboro Baptist Church manages it just fine. No, they’re merely expressing their opinions however vulgar. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/157 "2011-10-25T16:09:57Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Beyond making some people angry and upset, it also makes it difficult to identify people we, as a society, have determined it shouldn’t be difficult to identify. So, you think someone should not be punished – nay, should be _rewarded_ – for falsely claiming to be on the raid that got Osama? After all, that makes it easier for the government to protect the identities of the real mission personnel. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/158 "2011-10-25T16:19:21Z")
That’s, like, the worst analogy ever. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/159 "2011-10-26T18:18:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s, like, the worst analogy ever. On the contrary, it is precisely on point. You posited the standard based on society’s determination that certain individuals should be more readily identified than others; I pointed out the inescapable logical conclusion arising from that standard. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721/160 "2011-10-26T18:34:57Z")
Except for the part where the conclusion is neither logical nor inescapable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stolen-valor-act-ruled-unconstitutional/550721.md?page=9)