# Stoned (and roach and joint) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [March 16, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684 "2010-03-16T19:31:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/1 "2010-03-16T19:31:04Z")
Regarding: [What’s the origin of the words joint, roach, and stoned? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/253/whats-the-origin-of-the-words-joint-roach-and-stoned) I’ve read a letter written by a soldier in the Civil War in which he describes getting “stoned” on corn liquor. That doesn’t shed any light on the original etymology but it seems likely that the term was ported from drinking liquor to smoking marijuana. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/2 "2010-03-16T22:54:23Z")
“Stoned” for alcohol was still in use a century or more after the Civil War. The old Ray Charles song may very well intend a double meaning, but the ostensible reference, at least, is to alcohol. ---
**Author:** ![civilizationinruins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47c2d/32.png) [@civilizationinruins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/civilizationinruins)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/3 "2010-03-16T23:50:55Z")
My dad still uses “stoned” to mean being drunk on alcohol. Admittedly, he’s 89 years old, so that’s probably slang he’s preserved from the 1940s. But he did also smoke pot in the '30s and '40s, so presumably he was aware of its marijuana-related usage. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/4 "2010-03-17T00:50:40Z")
When I grew up, in the '60s and '70s in the UK, “stoned” was at least as likely to mean drunk as it was to mean (um) intoxicated by marijuana, and I might still use it that way on occasion. I am not young any more, but I will not be 89 for several decades. (I always assumed “drunk” was the earlier meaning, but I don’t know that.) ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/5 "2010-03-17T17:38:38Z")
From Cecil’s column: > [@](#): > > “Joint” seems to have come to its present meaning via a very circuitous route that started with the 19th-century American word “joinery,” which referred to a specific part of a building. How is joinery a 19th century American word? From OED: > [@](#): > > **joinery** > > 1. The art or occupation of a joiner; the construction of wooden furniture, fittings, etc.; also concr. such articles collectively; things made by a joiner. > > 1678 MOXON Mech. Exerc. iv. (1683) I. 59 Joynery is an Art Manual whereby several Pieces of Wood are so fitted and joyned together by straight Lines, Squares, Miters or any Bevel, that they shall seem one intire Piece. c1695 J. MILLER Descr. New York (1843) 31 The trades of joinery, carpentry, masonry. 1794 STEDMAN Surinam (1813) II. xxviii. 347 Chests, cupboards, lockers, and all sorts of joinery. 1879 Cassell’s Techn. Educ. III. 183 The higher branches of joinery approach cabinet-making and wood-carving. > > ``` > 2. transf. and fig. Work analogous to that of a joiner; the process or product of joining or fitting parts together. > > ``` > > 1774 BURKE Sp. Amer. Taxation Wks. 1880 I. 425 Lord Chatham..made an administration, so checkered and speckled; he put together a piece of joinery, so crossly indented. 1826 MISS MITFORD Village Ser. II. (1863) 317 That hideous piece of female joinery, a patch-work counterpane. 1828 CARLYLE Misc., Goethe (1872) I. 186 Mind..reasoned of as..some curious piece of logical joinery. > > ``` > 3. attrib. > > ``` > > 1727 BRADLEY Fam. Dict. s.v. Frames, Wooden Joinery Work of a triangular Form. 1875 Carpentry & Join. 106 Gloucester, in which town were then steam joinery works. That’s the complete entry and I see no evidence there for Cecil’s statement. Is there some specific sense that the OED has overlooked, or is Cecil just mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/6 "2010-03-18T01:39:46Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > From Cecil’s column: > > How is joinery a 19th century American word? From OED: > > That’s the complete entry and I see no evidence there for Cecil’s statement. Is there some specific sense that the OED has overlooked, or is Cecil just mistaken? While I have to agree with you by reading that now 35 year old column, I have no idea WHAT was in the version of the OED at that time. That might have some bearing on the matter. But, yeah, it has nothing to do with joinery as an American word in the 1800s. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/7 "2010-03-18T02:03:39Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > How is joinery a 19th century American word? From OED… That’s the complete entry and I see no evidence there for Cecil’s statement. Is there some specific sense that the OED has overlooked, or is Cecil just mistaken? I think that Cecil meant that it was in use in America in the 19th century. As for being “a specific part of a building”, it specifically means the timbers in a building. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/8 "2010-03-18T02:10:27Z")
Cecil doesn’t cite the OED in the first place, so what edition was available then is immaterial. (For what it’s worth, the Second Supplement, which became the basis of the OED2 in 1989, was only out through G in 1975.) On the other hand, I would like to know which OED is being cited in this thread; strictly speaking, of course, plain “OED” should mean the first edition.) But DARE and other such sources would be more suited to this job. ---
**Author:** ![sleepyrice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@sleepyrice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleepyrice)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/9 "2010-03-18T02:25:40Z")
Seems to me that ‘stoned’ means literally ‘brained’ as in hit over the head - maybe not the full biblical stoning treatment. As for roach - forgive my ignorance, but if smoking dope were illegal at the time it may well be that when ‘the man’ came by people dropped their joints and stepped on them ‘nah man, that’s not a joint - that was a roach’ ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/10 "2010-03-18T07:06:00Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > Cecil doesn’t cite the OED in the first place, so what edition was available then is immaterial. (For what it’s worth, the Second Supplement, which became the basis of the OED2 in 1989, was only out through G in 1975.) On the other hand, I would like to know which OED is being cited in this thread; strictly speaking, of course, plain “OED” should mean the first edition.) > > But DARE and other such sources would be more suited to this job. Sorry, that’s from the current OED Online. And I agree, DARE would be far more likely to show American usages. Does anybody have access to it? ---
**Author:** ![kfraser34](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@kfraser34](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kfraser34)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/11 "2010-03-19T12:24:20Z")
While I don’t have a copy of the book handy… My memory seems to tell me that Kerouac uses both stoned and high to refer to being drunk off of Alcohol in On the Road. The one section that I can remember vividly is when he is meeting Remi’s Father for dinner in San Francisco and he tries to tell him in french “Je Suis Haute” or I am high… but Remi’s father didn’t understand… ---
**Author:** ![waveydavey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@waveydavey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waveydavey)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/12 "2010-03-19T14:06:43Z")
It may just be a coincidence but the Italian word “stonato”, (the past participle of “stonare” which literally means to be out of tune), is frequently used to describe someone who is out of it, stunned, dazed or confused. In the Sicilian and Neapolitan dialects the same concept is expressed in the words stunatu and stunad respectively. ---
**Author:** ![Geedavey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f6c823/32.png) [@Geedavey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geedavey)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/13 "2010-03-22T17:08:25Z")
I always presumed that “roach” originated from its appearance; namely, stained brown, pointy at the back end and blackened at the front, and glossy from the oils; in other words, remarkably like a cockroach. Simple and elegant. BTW, a “Jefferson Airplane” is a roach held between a split paper match so that the roach is the ‘fuselage’ and the match is the ‘wings’. I don’t know why it’s a “Jefferson” airplane. I vote for the relationship between “stoned” and “stunned”; I’ve definitely seen “stoned” listed as a term for drunk on alcohol in an old list of over a hundred similar terms (favorite: “Burning with a clear blue flame”–a la an alcohol lamp). ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/14 "2010-03-22T17:52:21Z")
[Folk etymology that I just made up] Stoned comes from the German _stein_, which can mean either stone or beer mug. [/FETIJMU] ---
**Author:** ![kfraser34](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@kfraser34](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kfraser34)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/15 "2010-03-23T12:19:55Z")
> [@Geedavey](#): > > I always presumed that “roach” originated from its appearance; namely, stained brown, pointy at the back end and blackened at the front, and glossy from the oils; in other words, remarkably like a cockroach. > > Simple and elegant. “We must come to terms with the Drug Culture in this country!… country… country…” These echoes drifted back to the rear in confused waves. “The reefer butt is called a ‘roach’ because it resembles a cockroach… cockroach… cockroach…” [“What the fuck are these people talking about?” my attorney whispered. “You’d have to be crazy on acid to think a joint looked like a goddamn cockroach!”](http://www.99chan.org/lit/src/Hunter_S_Thompson_-_Fear_And_Loathing_In_Las_Vegas.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/16 "2010-03-25T01:18:16Z")
> [@Geedavey](#): > > BTW, a “Jefferson Airplane” is a roach held between a split paper match so that the roach is the ‘fuselage’ and the match is the ‘wings’. I don’t know why it’s a “Jefferson” airplane. Perhaps because there was a psychedelic rock band called Jefferson Airplane. I know if I was creating a marijuana airplane I’d use that name. Now, why they called themselves “Jefferson” airplane I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![kfraser34](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@kfraser34](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kfraser34)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/17 "2010-03-25T12:20:30Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > Perhaps because there was a psychedelic rock band called Jefferson Airplane. I know if I was creating a marijuana airplane I’d use that name. Now, why they called themselves “Jefferson” airplane I have no idea. Wiki is only a search away… The origin of the group’s name is often disputed. “Jefferson airplane” is slang for a used paper match split to hold a marijuana joint that has been smoked too short to hold without burning the fingers - an improvised roach clip.[7] An urban legend claims this was the origin of the band’s name, but according to band member Jorma Kaukonen, the name was invented by his friend Steve Talbot as a parody of blues names such as Blind Lemon Jefferson.[8] A 2007 press release quoted Kaukonen as saying: ``` I had this friend [Talbot] in Berkeley who came up with funny names for people," explains Kaukonen. "His name for me was Blind Thomas Jefferson Airplane (for blues pioneer Blind Lemon Jefferson). When the guys were looking for band names and nobody could come up with something, I remember saying, 'You want a silly band name? I got a silly band name for you!' ``` ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/18 "2010-03-25T15:37:00Z")
> [@kfraser34](#): > > Wiki is only a search away… > > The origin of the group’s name is often disputed. “Jefferson airplane” is slang for a used paper match split to hold a marijuana joint that has been smoked too short to hold without burning the fingers - an improvised roach clip.[7] An urban legend claims this was the origin of the band’s name, but according to band member Jorma Kaukonen, the name was invented by his friend Steve Talbot as a parody of blues names such as Blind Lemon Jefferson.[8] A 2007 press release quoted Kaukonen as saying: > > ``` > I had this friend [Talbot] in Berkeley who came up with funny names for people," explains Kaukonen. "His name for me was Blind Thomas Jefferson Airplane (for blues pioneer Blind Lemon Jefferson). When the guys were looking for band names and nobody could come up with something, I remember saying, 'You want a silly band name? I got a silly band name for you!' > > ``` Thanks. I had opened the Wiki page but missed the part about their origin. I would think it’s a stretch to think the group was named after the roach clip. The group formed in 1965 and the term roach clip was coined according to Webster ( [ROACH CLIP Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/roachclip) ) in 1968. In order for the band to have taken that name then there’s no way a Jefferson Airplane could be an improvised roach clip it would have to be the other way around since the airplane would predate the clip. The cite everyone is using for the slang appears to be “A child’s garden of grass” which came out in 1970. I can’t find a reference to the term Jefferson Airplane the roach clip that dates before that ( nor can I find an origin of the slang either ) and I can’t find a copy of that book online so I can’t tell what they have to say about the origin of the word either. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/19 "2010-03-25T20:54:43Z")
parse parse parse Oh, you’re saying “roach clip” came first. If “Jefferson airplane” came first, then a roach clip would be “an improvised Jefferson airplane”. Right? Wiki makes sense. The band needed a name, one of the members had a dumb name that had a catchy bit, so they named their band the catchy bit - Jefferson Airplane. Then, someone invented a cheap and easy roach clip that used a paper match that resembled an airplane, someone else thought to connect the airplane-looking-roach clip with a popular band name that mentions airplanes. Especially since that band was likely to use roach clips. Voila. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684/20 "2010-03-25T21:00:05Z")
_Fixing a hole in the ocean Trying to make a dove-tail joint-yeah Looking through a glass onion_ -John Lennon [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoned-and-roach-and-joint/532684.md?page=2)