# Stonewall risks all it has fought for in accusing those who disagree with it of hate speech **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 6, 2021, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702 "2021-06-06T12:07:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/61 "2021-06-07T14:43:48Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > “Only a bigot would refuse to agree with us fully” No one is saying that. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/62 "2021-06-07T14:46:47Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No one is saying that. That is my impression of the position that Stonewall seem to be taking. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/63 "2021-06-07T14:47:49Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That is my impression of the position that Stonewall seem to be taking. Your impression is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/64 "2021-06-07T14:58:14Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Your impression is incorrect Says the guy who first heard of them yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/65 "2021-06-07T14:59:44Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Says the guy who first heard of them yesterday. I mean, make it personal if you want, but evidence would be more persuasive. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/66 "2021-06-07T14:59:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > > “Only a bigot would refuse to agree with us fully” > > No one is saying that. This is also my impression of what the majority of posters here are saying. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/67 "2021-06-07T15:00:03Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > This is also my impression of what the majority of posters here are saying. Your impression is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/68 "2021-06-07T15:03:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I mean, make it personal if you want, but evidence would be more persuasive. I think it’s reasonable to point out that you are very unlikely to be well enough informed on the subject to justify such a categorical statement. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > This is also my impression of what the majority of posters here are saying. > > Your impression is incorrect. Can you give an example of a deviation from your beliefs that you will agree is not bigoted? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/69 "2021-06-07T15:20:13Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Can you give an example of a deviation from your beliefs that you will agree is not bigoted? I’ll refer you to Puzzlegal’s modnote to say, no. > [@DemonTree](#): > > I think it’s reasonable to point out that you are very unlikely to be well enough informed on the subject to justify such a categorical statement. I’m sure you think that’s reasonable, as it’s easier to adopt that position than to provide evidence to support the claim. Over the last day I’ve read a half-dozen article about them and about the current dustup, and none of those articles, including ones hostile to Stonewall, contained any evidence to back up your (or NB’s) claim. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/70 "2021-06-07T15:22:21Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Accusations of hate speech against reasonable views are likely to bring about a different end result to accusations of hate speech against obvious transphobia. I think we can discuss this in the abstract: we may not agree on what constitutes a “reasonable view”, but obviously we can agree that reasonable views (including a few that deviate from our own!) may exist. Suppose someone who holds a reasonable view is wrongly accused of transphobia. What “different end result” do you envision? Why the deep _concern_? Would such a thing transform a genuinely tolerant person into an _actual_ transphobe, when they were not before? I mean, if I were falsely accused of racism, obviously I’d be upset. But it wouldn’t make me start hating all black people and advocating actual racism. Because I’m an adult, and I don’t start endorsing despicable views toward an entire class of people in spiteful irrational retaliation because my feelings have been hurt. It seems to me that there are only grounds for _concern_ if the allegedly reasonable views are in fact a veneer for an undercurrent of preexisting transphobia. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/71 "2021-06-07T15:36:19Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Suppose someone who holds a reasonable view is wrongly accused of transphobia. What “different end result” do you envision? Why the deep _concern_ ? Would such a thing turn transform a tolerant person into an _actual_ transphobe, when they were not before? If your reasonable view gets labelled and accepted as transphobia then how will such a reasonable view be brought into the conversation and included as part of the resulting policy debate? Can you honestly not see any downside to reasonable and widely held views being discounted out of hand due to the ad-hoc labelling of them as bigoted? At the very least it ensures a narrower discussion than is actually warranted. As for you latter point, I don’t know that such a risk exists but an organisation that holds such a hard line may well risk losing support from such reasonable people who don’t much like being told that they are something they clearly are not. My own response in such a situation would not be to turn 180 degrees in my views but rather be to support a different group who are more open to discussion and slower to hurl unwarranted accusations. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/72 "2021-06-07T15:43:43Z")
What civil rights have been gained as the result of compromise? I’m sure there’s one or two examples, but for the most part it’s the result of an uncompromising demand, an absolute refusal to accept anything less than statutory equality. And for the article’s author, all of this risk you state is “not theoretical” is very much theoretical until you prove its existence. Outside of the fact that there are horrible human beings who are also transwomen, when you have hundreds of millions of women exposed to a ‘risk’ for years and years, there must be examples of that risk coming to fruition. Not the one example you picked off the cherry tree from 3 years ago, but many of them, a statistically significant number of them. This is where the anti side loses me, they are making clear non-bigoted claims about the safety of women, but not supporting those claims with data. If hundreds of millions of women were put at risk every day, _and they have been for years_, we should be able to see it, if the risk is real and significant. It matters very much whether this risk is real or theoretical. Bigots have used theoretical risks to justify their views forever, and they always use theoretical risks, their claims are never supported by unbiased scientific review of the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/73 "2021-06-07T15:45:16Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I do agree in general, the problem is when you get to define “bigotry” in your own way as “that which isn’t in perfect agreement with us”. regardless of any reasonable argument that may sit behind such a position Every person in history espousing a bigoted viewpoint has felt that they have a “reasonable argument” for their bigotry. No one’s ever said, “The Carthaginians are fine people, fundamentally no different from our own, and there’s no reason they should be treated any differently, but fuck 'em, I’m going to discriminate against them anyway, just for lolz.” ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/74 "2021-06-07T15:48:05Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If your reasonable view gets labelled and accepted as transphobia then how will such a reasonable view be brought into the conversation and included as part of the resulting policy debate? If they _are_ genuinely reasonable views then that will happen, and nobody can prevent it. In any rights movement, there are always fringe crazies. Our own beloved Huey Freeman comes to mind. He threw around all kinds of nonsense, but his views neither turned me into a racist, made me less inclined to be an ally, nor silenced what I think are my far more reasonable views on the matter. Obviously we will disagree on whether the views Stonewall are expressing are extreme fringe views. I don’t think they are. But even if they were, so what? For anyone genuinely concerned with opposing racism, the fight isn’t with Huey Freeman, it’s with actual racists. You shrug off the crazy and focus on what’s important. Likewise, for any true supporter of trans rights, the _important_ fight is not tone policing those on the fringe of your own movement for fear that someone might take offense. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > My own response in such a situation would not be to turn 180 degrees in my views but rather be to support a different group who are more open to discussion and slower to hurl unwarranted accusations. Sure, if you’re genuinely supportive of trans rights but disagree with some of Stonewall’s positions, go do that. But to come back to reality from this theoretical discussion… I’m highly skeptical that those who are so deeply _concerned_ here are in any way _genuinely_ supportive of trans rights. They are looking for rationalizations and justifications for their bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/75 "2021-06-07T15:52:51Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Can you honestly not see any downside to reasonable and widely held views being discounted out of hand due to the ad-hoc labelling of them as bigoted? Part of what’s tricky is that the entire conversation is over bigotry: what comprises reasonable discrimination, and what comprises unreasonable discrimination? By definition, the latter category is bigotry (setting aside pedantic dictionarial appeals). _In this specific sense_, yes, I might think people who disagree with me espouse a bigoted position, _because we’re discussing what a bigoted position is_. The OP seems to want to deny Stonewall the room to stake out a position on what anti-trans bigotry even consists of. Or, if they want to stake one out, it must agree absolutely with the OP’s position, or else they’re “risking all they have fought for.” That’s absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/76 "2021-06-07T15:56:40Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Every person in history espousing a bigoted viewpoint has felt that they have a “reasonable argument” for their bigotry. Of course, a claim of “reasonable argument” is no defence against bigotry. By the same token a claim of “bigotry” does not automatically trump a reasonable argument. What matters is the content of the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/77 "2021-06-07T16:01:54Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > By the same token a claim of “bigotry” does not automatically trump a reasonable argument. > > What matters is the content of the argument. Yup. Only arguments about what is actually bigoted are verboten in this thread, so the only real discussion is whether Stonewall should call 'em as they see 'em, or whether anti-trans activists are correct in telling them what a _terrible strategic error_ this is. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/78 "2021-06-07T16:03:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Part of what’s tricky is that the entire conversation is over bigotry: what comprises reasonable discrimination, and what comprises unreasonable discrimination? By definition, the latter category is bigotry (setting aside pedantic dictionarial appeals). Agree completely. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/79 "2021-06-07T16:05:47Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yup. Only arguments about what is actually bigoted are verboten in this thread, so the only real discussion is whether Stonewall should call 'em as they see 'em, or whether anti-trans activists are correct in telling them what a _terrible strategic error_ this is. It won’t just be “anti-trans activists” telling them it is a strategic error, unless you think that anyone telling them that is automatically “anti-trans” ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702/80 "2021-06-07T16:07:29Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > It won’t just be “anti-trans activists” telling them it is a strategic error, unless you think that anyone telling them that is automatically “anti-trans”… Perhaps not automatically. But history tells us to view anyone with a tone policing agenda with great skepticism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech/943702.md?page=5)