# Stoning in Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 19, 2007, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684 "2007-05-19T02:53:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/41 "2007-05-19T11:44:00Z")
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**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/42 "2007-05-19T11:48:47Z")
[QUOTE=Fat Chance] I just don’t know how a human can stand by and be ok with such an event. [/QUOTE] Sure you do. I mean, unless you’re headed over there. > [@Fat Chance](#): > > It has nothing to do with where someone lives, or what color they are, are what thier name is. So you prefer your bigotry decaffeinated? ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/43 "2007-05-19T12:15:24Z")
Are honor killings still a socially accepted practice by Muslims? What about female circumcision? Are they taking steps to wipe it out? I see in the CNN article arrests have been made and the police chief may be fired. Is it the older generations that are standing by this practice? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/44 "2007-05-19T12:30:15Z")
[QUOTE=marshmallow] Yazidi Kurdish society is morally superior to that of the U.S. because it doesn’t get into pointless, greedy wars of aggression which results in the dissolution of entire societies and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Does that count? [/QUOTE] Okay, I’m going to abandon this argument, as it has clearly failed. I just want to clarify something first: I didn’t mean to imply that American society is superior to any other. Notice the word “Canadian” in my first post. Beating America at non-violence is like beating a four-year-old in an arm wrestle. Would anyone disagree that relatively non-violent societies are superior to relatively violent ones? ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/45 "2007-05-19T12:46:53Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] So you prefer your bigotry decaffeinated? [/QUOTE] Aha! You’re one of them. People like **Ensign Edison** who pull the racist/bigot card out of their sock at the first tenuously, vaguely, maybe, half plausible opportunity. Those who conflate nature=nurture :rolleyes: or culture=race :rolleyes: or civilisation=race :rolleyes: or whatever, in the political context to accuse others of bigotry. You really are a bit of a fraud **Liberal** 😉 I like you anyway. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/46 "2007-05-19T13:10:05Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] We’ve had our share of lynchings and other cruelties in this country. [/QUOTE] Show us the fucking place where one of us fucking wants there to stil be lynchings in this country. YEAH WE FUCKING LOVE THEM LYNCHINGS!!!111111 FUCK YOU! Some of us are from a subculture where lynchings AND honor killings are wrong and we condemn subcultures and people where they happen. Do you? ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/47 "2007-05-19T13:15:34Z")
I like the OP. It’s especially well-argued because there hasn’t been a single instance of religious violence in “enlightened, advanced Western civilization” for literally thousands of years. You could look it up; it’s an historical fact. So it’s entirely understandable that the Yazidi Kurdish population should be condemned as a completely alien, utterly loathsome and irredeemable culture. They must have some sort of extra chromosome or something, that would allow them to tolerate religiously motivated killings. Maybe they’re robots. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/48 "2007-05-19T13:41:13Z")
**Shamozzle** : > [@](#): > > _I think I understand what you are saying: That violent acts can be condemned without the necessarily requirement to judge the culture in which they occur as inferior, and that any given culture or society is sufficiently faceted, substructured, and subjective in its interpretation that it is impossible to distill absolutes based on analysis of said culture for the purposes of determining a suggested cultural inferiority. Do I have that right?_ Yup. I’d also add that you run into problems because you are necessarily constrained by your own cultural presuppositions, and its inherent values, when you pass that kind of judgment. There’s no value-free environment in which an objective observer can compare Culture 1 and Culture 2, and decide: Culture 1 is better. Whenever one passes that kind of judgment, one relies on a lot of factors, many of which are derived from the basic values of one’s own culture. > [@](#): > > _If so, I ask for argument’s sake whether it could ever be appropriate to absolutely judge one culture as superior to another. Could we even conceive a hypothetical where this would be true? For our purpose, I’ll invent a society where the population makes it a point to (Oh, I don’t know, something totally horrid) vivisect three quarters of newborn infants sans anesthetic. Would it be improper to judge such a society as inferior as compared to, say, Sweden? Why or why not? If not, might it nevertheless serve practical purpose towards overall wellbeing to do so?_ I’m not too comfortable when we start to get into this more abstract level. I suppose it would be possible, and I suppose you might say, in at least that aspect, your infant-vivisecting culture would be inferior to Swedish culture. At least from my culturally-biased perspective. 😉 But I’m not sure why it would be necessary. This is part of what I reacted to when I was reading this thread. That we condemn the act, and find it revolting and sickening, is entirely understandable to me; but some of the posters then took it a step further, and made a kind of value judgment: “my culture, at least, is superior to _that_!” And I wonder a bit where this impulse comes from. Why the need to use this horrible incident as an excuse to immediately assert one’s cultural superiority? > [@](#): > > _This point leads back to one I made earlier where I suggested that, at some point, for practical purposes and to serve overall wellbeing it serves to dispense with academic arguments and to judge absolutely. Am I wrong in arriving at this conclusion? If so, how?_ Well…I pass judgment against this act with full knowledge that my values are culturally dependent. As far as that goes, I don’t give a shit: stoning this girl was a revolting thing to do, and I hope all of the men involved are punished for it. But this question about how to balance relative and absolute morality is, in all honesty, beyond my poor capacities, and I don’t know how to give you a good answer for it. As I said, all I reacted to was the assertion of cultural superiority, the “well, at least we’re better than _those people_,” an attitude that I’m allergic to. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/49 "2007-05-19T14:04:14Z")
I want to know what the fuck is wrong with you men. MEN! Women don’t do this shit. Not unless they join male institutions, like that little twat over at Abu Ghraib. What is it about MEN that makes you do this crap? Put that in your pipe and smoke it. ---
**Author:** ![zoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/71c47a/32.png) [@zoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoo)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/50 "2007-05-19T14:05:56Z")
[QUOTE=Terrifel] It’s especially well-argued because there hasn’t been a single instance of religious violence in “enlightened, advanced Western civilization” for literally thousands of years. [/QUOTE] You do realize our “enlightened, advanced Western civilization” was burning witches less than 400 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/51 "2007-05-19T14:12:00Z")
From the CNN link. > [@](#): > > Authorities believe she was killed for being seen with a Sunni Muslim man. She had not married him or converted, but her attackers believed she had, a top official in Nineveh province said. The Yazidis, who observe an ancient Middle Eastern religion, look down on mixing with people of another faith. Sad sad sad. And not unlike a black man being seen with a white woman back in the 1950’s in the USA. And the black man might be hung. In the USA and the modern world, we have come to see that such honor killings are abhorrent. And actually goes against any decent human behavior, and what ever God you may happen to believe in. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/52 "2007-05-19T14:12:48Z")
**fessie** : > [@](#): > > \*I want to know what the fuck is wrong with you men. MEN! > > Women don’t do this shit. Not unless they join male institutions, like that little twat over at Abu Ghraib. What is it about MEN that makes you do this crap? > > Put that in your pipe and smoke it.\* Could it be because we’re culturally inferior? ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/53 "2007-05-19T14:14:04Z")
God. I have a daughter, a sweet darling girl with dark hair and a beautiful round face. I only caught the beginning and ending of that clip. I need to go cry for a while. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/54 "2007-05-19T14:18:49Z")
[QUOTE=zoo] You do realize our “enlightened, advanced Western civilization” was burning witches less than 400 years ago. [/QUOTE] Nice part in your hair from that whoosh. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/55 "2007-05-19T14:23:30Z")
[QUOTE=zoo] You do realize our “enlightened, advanced Western civilization” was burning witches less than 400 years ago. [/QUOTE] Oh nonsense! This is Western civilization we’re talking about! Next you’ll be trying to claim that Catholics and Protestants don’t always get along! I suppose you also believe those urban legends that the interaction between Christians and Jews has occasionally been less than perfectly harmonious. Poppycock, says I! Balderdash! Horsefeathers! Animal crackers! Besides, they were robot witches. ---
**Author:** ![zoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/71c47a/32.png) [@zoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoo)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/56 "2007-05-19T14:29:57Z")
:smack: Context, context, context. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/57 "2007-05-19T14:44:25Z")
[QUOTE=fessie] I want to know what the fuck is wrong with you men. MEN! Women don’t do this shit. Not unless they join male institutions, like that little twat over at Abu Ghraib. What is it about MEN that makes you do this crap? Put that in your pipe and smoke it. [/QUOTE] I’m a man **fessie** and I can assure you that I am just as abhorred by these types of honor killings as you might be. It may sound a bit old fashioned, but I believe that as a man it is my duty to protect those that can’t protect themselves. It’s my job. First off and foremost. It sucks some times, but it is one of the things that I and most men don’t have to think about. It just is. I actually like that position sometimes. No need for debate, no need to ponder. I would take on Godzilla to protect my Wife from harm. I have not seen the video of the stoning. But I can assure you that no MEN participated in the stoning. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/58 "2007-05-19T14:54:00Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] Are honor killings still a socially accepted practice by Muslims? What about female circumcision? [/QUOTE] Honor killings occur in (at minimum) Muslim, Christian, and Hindu societies. This particular act was carried out by a specific social enclave that happens to live in a Muslim part of the world. Female circumcision occurs in (at minimum) Muslim, Christian, and Animist societies and is not a religious tenet of either Islam or Christianity. (Animism has no central set of tenets, being a fairly distributed religion of localized practices, so on a region by region basis, it _might_ be religious in nature.) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/59 "2007-05-19T16:34:40Z")
[QUOTE=fessie] I want to know what the fuck is wrong with you men. MEN! Women don’t do this shit. [/QUOTE] I’m going to disagree with this. Women are just as capable of abhorrent behavior. For example in most areas where it occurs female circumcision is in fact performed by women, including on their own daughters. Nor do I doubt that they would be up to stoning someone they considered a transgressor if they considered it part of their role to take part. While these societies do in fact tend to be overwhelmingly patriarchal, it doesn’t mean that many of the women in them haven’t bought fully into the roles they are expected to play and are just as ready to take a rough vengeance on “cultural deviants.”. Edited to add: In fact this reminds me of this old quote from Kipling **Captain Amazing** posted awhile back. _When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains, **And the women come out to cut up what remains** , Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains An’ go to your Gawd like a soldier._ That wasn’t really hyperbole. Shit like that DID happen. [QUOTE=tomndebb] Honor killings occur in (at minimum) Muslim, Christian, and Hindu societies. [/QUOTE] And Yazidi, 'twould appear. At that they are no different than there non-Yazidi Kurdish neighbors. Yazidism is pretty unclassifiable due to its somewhat syncretic nature ( but just baldly calling it a syncretism between Zoroastrianism and Islam as I’ve seen some reports do is really an oversimplification ), but the core of its mythology certainly pre-dates Islam. Possibly all Abrahamic religions, though I don’t think anyone can really confirm that. At any rate I suspect this has less to do with any scriptures, than it does with the clannish, insular nature of backwoods Kurdish culture generally and that of the even more isolated and not infrequently oppressed and harassed Yazidi Kurds in particular. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684/60 "2007-05-19T16:57:38Z")
In my Dearborn area we used to have honor killings. It has been some time since one has been reported. In America do have a white on black violence that belies our superiority. We lynched blacks ,blew up their churches and shot people who marched to help free them. How can you lay claim to superiority. ?Stoning is prehistoric and disgusting but we have been there . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoning-in-iraq/404684.md?page=4)