# Stop acting like both parties are at fault; that rhetoric is getting OLD **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 8, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895 "2011-08-08T02:05:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/1 "2011-08-08T02:05:49Z")
Ugh, I am so sick of hearing shit like this: “You realize that party-bashing the Republicans makes you no better than those who party-bash the Democrats, right?” “Hey, everyone is responsible here. It couldn’t have just been the republicans; the democrats were also hesitant to comply!” “How dare you claim that the republicans were single-handedly responsible for this whole debacle? Obviously the democrats are also at fault for torpedoing a few suggestions!” It’s _false_. It’s _not_ reasonable to claim that both parties are at fault for this. Before you try to claim that this was a compromise and that washington spent the entire time screwing each other, answer these questions for me: [ul] [li]Who took a very matter-of-course issue which has passed with no arguments for the last 10 years and, for no good reason, decided that this was the point to make a stand?[/li][li]Who started, right at the beginning of discussions, by demanding that one of the _two_ possible ways to achieve what they wanted be taken off the table?[/li][li]Who compromised and agreed time and time again to sweeten the deal for the other party?[/li][li]Which party, just 8 years ago, apparently _did not care_ about deficits?[/li][li]Which party, as soon as the dust settled, immediately attacked a third-party who had ultimately little to do with the whole fiasco and little power over it for political gain?[/ul][/li] Here are the answers: -The republican party, by using the debt ceiling as a way to force deficit-reduction legislature through (despite the fact that it wasn’t really needed) -The republican party, by signing a pledge that they would _not_ raise taxes in any ways (if you can’t raise revenue, all that’s left is cuts) -The democratic party; originally, we were looking into spending cuts _and_ revenue increases; in the end we got _only_ spending cuts. -The republican party; look up what Dick Cheney has to say on the matter. -The republican party; look up what Michelle Bachmann has to say on the matter. So… Is it false to decry the republicans for this fiasco? Oh _hell no_. Is it ridiculous to claim that we’re “playing partisan politics” or “party-bashing” by calling them on their bullshit? Fuck yes. Look, I hate to invoke Godwin’s law here, but _it’s not party-bashing to claim that the NSDAP killed people_. So why would it be party-bashing or partisan to claim that the republicans are all but single-handedly responsible for the bullshit in the last few weeks, and going on to infer that they did it for political gain (Boehner still considers getting Obama out of the white house his #1 goal; the republican hopefuls IMMEDIATELY blamed this mess on Obama, despite him having ultimately very little power to do anything about it)? It isn’t. It’s a fair and balanced assessment of the facts we have. So fuck off with that “they’re both at fault” rhetoric. It’s a load of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/2 "2011-08-08T02:17:58Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > It’s _false_. It’s _not_ reasonable to claim that both parties are at fault for this. Well, you know how it is. Reality has a well known liberal bias. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/3 "2011-08-08T04:02:20Z")
Anyone who says all of the blame or credit goes to one party or the other is obviously a partisan hack. Sorry…it’s not an act. Both parties ARE to blame for the fucked up mess we are in here. That doesn’t mean they are equally to blame (I’m currently placing the blame about about 70/30, with the Republicans getting the lions share in the most recent fiasco). But trying to place all of the blame on one party basically shows that the person making such a claim doesn’t know what the fuck they are talking about or is so blindly partisan that they can just be discounted…such as Der Trihs in this case, since it involves A) America and B) The Republican Party. And I guess the OP falls into this same category as well, sadly. Ah well. -XT ---
**Author:** ![The\_Universe\_Lashes\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8797f3/32.png) [@The\_Universe\_Lashes\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Universe_Lashes_Out)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/4 "2011-08-08T04:13:50Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > (I’m currently placing the blame about about 70/30, with the Republicans getting the lions share in the most recent fiasco). Just curious as to how you arrived at 70/30. There has certainly been no small amount of idiocy and irresponsibility by Democratic lawmakers, but for the debt ceiling crisis itself, I find it hard to blame them for more than, say, 10 percent of the fiasco. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/5 "2011-08-08T04:20:38Z")
1.) Well, I do remember Obama once voting no to raise the deficit, but I guess we could overlook that. 2.) Why does this continue to be brought up? Congressional Democrats explicitly stated that they weren’t going to accept any plan with cuts to Medicare/Social Security cuts. In fact, the one plan Obama offered up that was sent to a Senate vote was shot down 0 - 97. 3.) Not Democrats. Most of those cuts were in discretionary spending. They refused to touch the biggest drivers of the deficit. 4.) Neither. 5.) Both of them. Or did you happen to miss the White House’s reaction? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/6 "2011-08-08T05:22:56Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > But trying to place all of the blame on one party basically shows that the person making such a claim doesn’t know what the fuck they are talking about or is so blindly partisan that they can just be discounted…such as Der Trihs in this case, since it involves A) America and B) The Republican Party. In other words: I don’t suck up to the Right enough to make you happy, so you blatantly lie about what I’ve just said. And since the behavior of the Republicans is indefensible and the present disaster is clearly their fault you won’t even try to defend them; you’ll try to throw out accusations about partisanship and try to make this thread about me. If this turns into a three page “bash **Der Trihs** ” thread then you conveniently don’t have to explain how this disaster isn’t _really_ the Republicans fault, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/7 "2011-08-08T11:01:25Z")
Why does the OP have two pit threads on the same f’n topic? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/8 "2011-08-08T11:22:48Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > 1.) Well, I do remember Obama once voting no to raise the deficit, but I guess we could overlook that. It was a simple protest vote cast in the knowledge that it didn’t matter. Quit jumping up and down, you didn’t play the Ace of Fucking Trumps. > [@](#): > > 3.) Not Democrats. Most of those cuts were in discretionary spending. They refused to touch the biggest drivers of the deficit. The biggest drivers of the deficit are the Bush tax cuts and the economic downturn. The Republicans blocked any attempt to touch the former and the spending cuts exacerbate the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/9 "2011-08-08T12:41:31Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Look, I hate to invoke Godwin’s law here, but _it’s not party-bashing to claim that the NSDAP killed people_. Yes they did, and you’ve still lost the thread by Godwinizing. Blame the Republicans more by all means. But both sides were gutless for not tackling major spending issues and for not endorsing across the board tax hikes because it’s too close to the 2012 elections. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/10 "2011-08-08T12:43:06Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > 1.) Well, I do remember Obama once voting no to raise the deficit, but I guess we could overlook that. Sure, it was a token gesture and the “no” voters had no plausible explanation of actually winning nor any plans to stymie the process. Mississippi rejected the 13th Amendment on December 5, 1865 and finally ratified it on March 16, 1995. Does that mean slavery continued in Mississippi for 130 years after the Civil War? For that matter, I’m sure you can find Republicans who in the past voted agasint debt-ceiling raises under Clinton or Carter, with similar lackof consequence. So what exactly do you think the significance of Obama’s vote is, and if it has none, do you intend to refer to it again in future, and if so, why? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/11 "2011-08-08T13:39:44Z")
They ARE both at fault. You act like the financial issues we have developed overnight. They didn’t. O the one side you have the Republicans, who have log been insistent on tax cuts but only now have been about spending cuts. On the other you have the Democrats, who insist on tax increases but nonono, don’t you dare touch entitlement programs like Medicare and Social Security! It doesn’t take a genius to see that they are both wrong. USA Today had an editorial that said it well: [And still Republicans and Democrats act like two men fighting desperately for control of a raft that’s headed for Niagara Falls.](http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2011-08-07-debt-rating-downgrade-AAA_n.htm) This has been a long time coming, and there is enough blame to go around. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/12 "2011-08-08T13:41:12Z")
One opinion on this matter [comes from a Nobel Prize winner](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/08/opinion/credibility-chutzpah-and-debt.html). (I apologize if citing a mere Nobel Prize winner is laughable on this Board since here we can get opinions from creatures who should be much rarer: creatures with the brains of a polliwog who can defecate on the Internet in a fashion resembling English.) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/13 "2011-08-08T13:44:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Who took a very matter-of-course issue which has passed with no arguments for the last 10 years and, for no good reason, decided that this was the point to make a stand? Presumably the Republicans felt that they had a good reason to use the debt ceiling as a bargaining chip just like the Democrats felt that they had a good reason to do so in the past. Of course, you may feel that Republicans’ aims are inherently wrong and the Democrats’ aims are inherently correct. But if that’s the case, then you should come out and say that that Republicans are wrong to take any part at all in the legislative process. i.e. reveal yourself to be a partisan. > [@](#): > > Who started, right at the beginning of discussions, by demanding that one of the two possible ways to achieve what they wanted be taken off the table? I don’t know, but I imagine that both parties have made demands that things be taken off the table many times over the last 50 years. > [@](#): > > Who compromised and agreed time and time again to sweeten the deal for the other party? Again, I imagine that both parties compromised on numerous issues in this dispute as well as in others. > [@](#): > > Which party, just 8 years ago, apparently did not care about deficits? Based on their actions, I would guess that both parties have about the same amount of care about deficits, i.e. they are willing to live with them in order to advance their respective agendas. > [@](#): > > Which party, as soon as the dust settled, immediately attacked a third-party who had ultimately little to do with the whole fiasco and little power over it for political gain? I would guess both sides played the blame game. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/14 "2011-08-08T14:33:33Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Presumably the Republicans felt that they had a good reason to use the debt ceiling as a bargaining chip just like the Democrats felt that they had a good reason to do so in the past. I know it’s the Pit and all, but - Cite? what issue did the Democrats hold the debt-ceiling hostage to? I don’t think you’ll find anything other than symbolic, “look at me I care about the deficit” votes. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/15 "2011-08-08T14:38:32Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > (I apologize if citing a mere Nobel Prize winner is laughable on this Board since here we can get opinions from creatures who should be much rarer: **creatures with the brains of a polliwog who can defecate on the Internet in a fashion resembling English.)** Oh, you mean [this Nobel Prize winner.](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/11/luc_montagnier_the_nobel_disease_strikes.php) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/16 "2011-08-08T14:51:15Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > I know it’s the Pit and all, but - Cite? > > what issue did the Democrats hold the debt-ceiling hostage to? I don’t think you’ll find anything other than symbolic, “look at me I care about the deficit” votes. Here is an example from another thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14109123&postcount=35](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14109123&postcount=35) The Democrats apparently had some kind of anti-war measure which they attached to the debt ceiling bill so that Nixon would sign it. My guess is that these sorts of things happen regularly. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/17 "2011-08-08T15:44:17Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > 1.) Well, I do remember Obama once voting no to raise the deficit, but I guess we could overlook that. As others have said, it didn’t make a difference and nobody really knows _why_ he did it. > [@](#): > > 2.) Why does this continue to be brought up? Congressional Democrats explicitly stated that they weren’t going to accept any plan with cuts to Medicare/Social Security cuts. In fact, the one plan Obama offered up that was sent to a Senate vote was shot down 0 - 97. …[And then they kinda did anyways?](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2011/08/how-will-the-debt-deal-impact-medicare.html) Furthermore, you’re equating the unwillingness to cut two crucial benefits programs that our elderly more or less live on to the unwillingness to raise taxes on _anything_. Now, if the democrats had demanded, right from the start, “cuts in anything other than corporate incentives are off the table”, then you could equate them fairly. A fair comparison would be the republicans said “no raising taxes on the lower brackets”: a perfectly reasonable demand that, while lowering the options on the table, doesn’t really amount for an unreasonable shortening of routes to take. > [@](#): > > 3.) Not Democrats. Most of those cuts were in discretionary spending. They refused to touch the biggest drivers of the deficit. Uh… first of all, you’re wrong; second of all, _bush tax cuts, defense spending, CORPORATE SUBSIDIES_! > [@](#): > > 4.) Neither. Yeah, but the democrats aren’t being massively hypocritical by saying “the can has been kicked as far down the road as it can go” after their party had said “deficits don’t matter” just a few years back! > [@](#): > > 5.) Both of them. Or did you happen to miss the White House’s reaction? I guess I did. Who did Obama blame? > [@Shakes](#): > > Why does the OP have two pit threads on the same f’n topic? Two alternative explanations: 1. This is considerably different to the other thread or 2. Alzheimers. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/18 "2011-08-08T15:48:18Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Of course, you may feel that Republicans’ aims are inherently wrong and the Democrats’ aims are inherently correct. But if that’s the case, then you should come out and say that that Republicans are wrong to take any part at all in the legislative process. i.e. reveal yourself to be a partisan. I think both parties deserve several hard kicks in the nuts. That said, this fiasco was 95% the fault of the Republican hardliners bolstered by Tea Party support. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/19 "2011-08-08T15:48:59Z")
> [@](#): > > perfectly reasonable demand This is what it comes down to. For a partisan, his party’s demands are reasonable and the other party’s demands are not. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895/20 "2011-08-08T15:58:01Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > This is what it comes down to. For a partisan, his party’s demands are reasonable and the other party’s demands are not. The refusal for Republicans to discuss the possibility of raising taxes even a dime is why we are in this mes. End of story. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-acting-like-both-parties-are-at-fault-that-rhetoric-is-getting-old/591895.md?page=2)