# Stop and Frisk **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131 "2013-08-13T14:23:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/21 "2013-08-15T05:06:07Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > In these examples, it’s clear that their suspicions were largely unfounded and any individual claim against a particular S&F would not be sufficient. And in those individual cases any charges that came about should be kicked, and NYPD and officers involved should suffer consequences. But this ruling seems to be tying all S&F together and thus tying the hands of law enforcement. And **Der Trihs** is dead wrong. Stop and frisk is one of many tools that does work. Some officers just abused it. No need to throw the baby out with the bath water and all that rot. Some of you are forgetting what a criminal shithole NYC was in the 60’s, 70’s, and part of the 80’s. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/22 "2013-08-15T05:37:36Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Some of you are forgetting what a criminal shithole NYC was in the 60’s, 70’s, and part of the 80’s. But you won’t solve the problem of crime by overly aggressive police tactics. The people then just see the police as an enemy to be resisted. You need to have the people and the police feeling that they’re on the same side not opponents. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/23 "2013-08-15T05:47:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But you won’t solve the problem of crime by overly aggressive police tactics. The people then just see the police as an enemy to be resisted. You need to have the people and the police feeling that they’re on the same side not opponents. You seem to be insinuating that every single person walking down the street was getting jacked up. This was not the case. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/24 "2013-08-15T06:06:48Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > And **Der Trihs** is dead wrong. Stop and frisk is one of many tools that does work. Some officers just abused it. It doesn’t work, it is literally worse than nothing, and it _existed_ to be abused. > [@pkbites](#): > > Some of you are forgetting what a criminal shithole NYC was in the 60’s, 70’s, and part of the 80’s. And the crime rate went down there just as it did all over the country. And you fail to answer why being abused by the police is an improvement. > [@pkbites](#): > > You seem to be insinuating that every single person walking down the street was getting jacked up. Non-whites were constantly being stopped and searched, as well as physically abused; so many that it’s pretty much inevitable that many were harassed multiple times. It was simply racist persecution and had nothing to do with crime. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But you won’t solve the problem of crime by overly aggressive police tactics. The people then just see the police as an enemy to be resisted. You need to have the people and the police feeling that they’re on the same side not opponents. Of course in a sense that’s truth in advertising. The police are the enemy of the non-whites, and are a bunch a of bigoted thugs bent on persecution, and care nothing for the law or for the safety of anyone who isn’t white and at the least middle class. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/25 "2013-08-15T06:11:10Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > You seem to be insinuating that every single person walking down the street was getting jacked up. This was not the case. But if people perceive that they’re more likely to get jacked up for racial reasons than any actual crime preventing purposes, they will see the police as a problem rather than a solution to a problem. And the statistics that have been cited in this thread seem to indicate that would be a valid conclusion. Heck, I’m a old white guy who grew up in farm country and worked in a prison. If somebody like me thinks the police are unfairly targeting inner city minorities, there’s a problem. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/26 "2013-08-15T07:01:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The police are the enemy of the non-whites, and are a bunch a of bigoted thugs bent on persecution, and care nothing for the law or for the safety of anyone who isn’t white and at the least middle class. This is absolute crap and is a bigoted statement in and of itself! ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/27 "2013-08-15T12:44:40Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Stopping and frisking a young male loitering in a high crime neighborhood at 2AM is reasonable. > > It has to do with context. I’m absolutely positive that some of the S&F NYPD did were unreasonable, but each case has to be judged individually. This is a blanket ruling and it sucks! This is exactly the problem. A young latino or black man walking through a more marginal neighborhood _does not look suspicious_ in context. Take that same man and drop him in the middle of Park Slope and you have a target for stop & frisk. He isn’t white, he isn’t upper middle class, and he doesn’t fit in. A cop thinks he is "moving furtively, "pushes him up against a wall, and threatens to break his arm if he doesn’t comply. This is, among other things, the damage that stop & frisk is doing. It is quite literally keeping people who don’t look like they fit in from passing through certain neighborhoods _even if they live there_. This is not the sort of city we want to live in. I applaud the federal court’s judgment but do not believe it goes nearly far enough. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/28 "2013-08-15T13:45:53Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > This is, among other things, the damage that stop & frisk is doing. Correct. Unless you’re the duly-elected mayor [of San Diego](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/14/us-usa-sandiego-mayor-idUSBRE97C0W520130814), patting people down for insufficient reason is just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/29 "2013-08-15T13:52:57Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Stopping and frisking a young male loitering in a high crime neighborhood at 2AM is reasonable. You should know, that alone “in and of itself” is not a legal basis to frisk a person or even to conduct a Terry Stop. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/30 "2013-08-15T15:12:11Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > So? You are aware that there is a crime problem among young black and Latino males, right? And that’s _exactly_ what you can’t do with statistics: say some groups are disproportionally represented, and then start targeting members of that group at random. And guess what targeting black and Hispanic people does to crime statistics? It increases the same disparity by making sure they get arrested at higher rates than whites and others! [Stop and frisk has also brought about a huge increase in arrests for marijuana](http://gothamist.com/2013/05/22/stop_frisk_way_better_at_finding_we.php), _and the police aren’t supposed to be arresting people for marijuana possession in the first place_. Possession of a small amount of weed is a ticketing offense because New York City recognized a long time ago (as many other places have since) that it’s not worth arresting people for. So the police are overstepping their own guidelines to get us a bunch of useless arrests. Those arrests started to fall off in the last year because people have been complaining about the utter pointlessness. And of course there is also a huge racial disparity in those arrests. > [@](#): > > This is a bad ruling because rather than judging each stop and frisk individually on it’s merits Yes, ignore the statistics and the facts- shouldn’t the judge just take the police’s word at face value? I think we all know very well that the police are able to provide technical justifications for these stops and arrests. The question is whether those justifications stand up to scrutiny and what their broader impact is. The police aren’t going to deal with that issue. I suppose they could, but we know that in this case, they will not. So the judge has appointed an independent overseer to help the NYPD make some necessary changes. She did not throw out the program itself. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t define the term unreasonable as it’s impossible to think of all situations. Yes, we have judges for that. > [@](#): > > Stopping and frisking a 60 year old woman walking down main street River Hills at 2PM is unreasonable. > > Stopping and frisking a young male loitering in a high crime neighborhood at 2AM is reasonable. Stopping and frisking a young black guy because he’s in a white neighborhood is unreasonable. That’s a bedrock segregationist-type policy. That’s not the intended effect, but it is the kind of results you get with this tactic. > [@](#): > > I’m absolutely positive that some of the S&F NYPD did were unreasonable, but each case has to be judged individually. _No, they don’t, because that’s an excuse to do nothing about it._ > [@](#): > > It does reveal the hypocrisy of liberals, though. They go on about wanting to stop violent crime, but their only method is to violate the Constitution (i.e. gun control) which only affects law abiding people. Gee, I’m pretty sure the gun laws here have passed constitutional muster. > [@](#): > > But a method that actually works, and actually affects law breakers, then they start showing concern for what the Bill of Rights says. Yeah, that must be it. We’re too worried about minority criminals and not worried enough about law-abiding gun owners (notice how you defined those as separate groups?) ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/31 "2013-08-15T15:42:41Z")
The police do not seem to support the idea that we should judge each stop & frisk on its own merits. They have strongly resisted the idea that they should wear cameras when conducting these searches. How else would you propose to judge each stop on its merits then, **pkbites**? **Bricker** , our local perv is not the mayor at least. 🙂 I am horrified that all Filner got is two weeks of rehab. But how he is being treated is a consequence of much larger issues that I hesitate to have a blanket opinion on. I feel like he _deserves_ worse, but I have no idea what we would need to do to get there. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/32 "2013-08-15T15:44:50Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > It does reveal the hypocrisy of liberals, though. They go on about wanting to stop violent crime, but their only method is to violate the Constitution (i.e. gun control) which only affects law abiding people. But a method that actually works, and actually affects law breakers, then they start showing concern for what the Bill of Rights says. And in this case it doesn’t say what they say it’s saying. More evidence of how completely full of crap the left is. I forget…are Mayor Bloomberg and Police Commissioner Kelly liberals or conservatives? They both support strong, restrictive gun laws (liberal). They both strongly support stop & frisk (conservative). I get so confused when my round pegs don’t fit in my square holes. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/33 "2013-08-15T15:44:52Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > **Bricker** , our local perv is not the mayor at least. 🙂 I am horrified that all Filner got is two weeks of rehab. That’s his own made-up solution. He’ll be forced out eventually, but I guess it’s not a surprise that he’s slimy enough to think he can get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/34 "2013-08-15T15:59:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s his own made-up solution. He’ll be forced out eventually, but I guess it’s not a surprise that he’s slimy enough to think he can get away with it. Yeah, I didn’t mean to imply that it was the outcome of any kind of trial so much as the political process thus far. He needed the two weeks to see who his real friends are and to plan his next moves. Still, it’s a bad situation, and I do not know the details of local politics there at all. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/35 "2013-08-15T16:00:47Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > I forget…are Mayor Bloomberg and Police Commissioner Kelly liberals or conservatives? > > They both support strong, restrictive gun laws (liberal). They both strongly support stop & frisk (conservative). > > I get so confused when my round pegs don’t fit in my square holes. You can’t forget Bloomberg’s freedom-hating soda plan or the forced installation of bike lanes without consulting the communities. It’s almost like he is left wing or something. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/36 "2013-08-15T16:12:41Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > You seem to be insinuating that every single person walking down the street was getting jacked up. This was not the case. In 2011, the number of stops of young black men exceeded the entire city population of young black men ([168,126 as compared to 158,406](http://www.nyclu.org/news/new-nyclu-report-finds-nypd-stop-and-frisk-practices-ineffective-reveals-depth-of-racial-dispar)). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/37 "2013-08-15T17:03:49Z")
I am fairly certain this will be overturned on appeal. I haven’t read the ruling yet, but the commentary I have read suggests the Court found a disparate effect based on race, but no _intentional_ discrimination. Governing precedent is pretty clear: you need both. Having said that, I think the governing precedent is wrong, and an overwhelming racial disparity should be sufficient to trigger the Equal Protection Clause. That’s what it’s for. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/38 "2013-08-15T18:18:05Z")
> [@lawbuff](#): > > You should know, that alone “in and of itself” is not a legal basis to frisk a person or even to conduct a Terry Stop. Yes it is. I can’t speak for NYC but in many places loitering is a violation of law. Touch private property, like a car or walking across someones lawn, and now you have prowling or at very least trespass. These are all violations of law and justification for an F.I. stop. Pinching on little things like this prevents bigger things from happening later. I’ve been doing this for over 31 years myself. I know what I can and can’t do and I’ve never had one of my arrests tossed out on appeal. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/39 "2013-08-15T18:26:47Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Yes it is. I can’t speak for NYC but in many places loitering is a violation of law. [Loitering.](http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/PEN/THREE/N/240/240.35) I don’t think too many of these searches were conducted for the reasons given here. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131/40 "2013-08-15T18:33:42Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Yes it is. I can’t speak for NYC but in many places loitering is a violation of law. Touch private property, like a car or walking across someones lawn, and now you have prowling or at very least trespass. These are all violations of law and justification for an F.I. stop. Pinching on little things like this prevents bigger things from happening later. > > I’ve been doing this for over 31 years myself. I know what I can and can’t do and I’ve never had one of my arrests tossed out on appeal. Should the spirit of the law be considered along with the letter of the law? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-and-frisk/666131.md?page=3)