# Stop being so civil! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 28, 2005, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087 "2005-01-28T11:13:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/61 "2005-01-28T15:58:34Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Then it’s a shame. All my life I’ve grown up around successful, educated, confident and moderate Muslim women (my fiancee included), but it’s people like **Sarah W** who end up posting here and inviting everyone to examine her extreme views. :rolleyes: FWIW, I doubt too many people think she’s representative. **Angua’s** been doing a pretty great job; I wonder if she’d consider starting a thread called “Ask the sane Muslim Woman”? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/62 "2005-01-28T16:02:36Z")
Heh. I’ve met **Angua** several times, and while she’s an utterly lovely lady, no-one can accuse her of being entirely sane. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/63 "2005-01-28T16:54:21Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > But you’re spot on in saying that there’s a double standard here. This stupid bitch (if she’s sincere and not just pulling our legs) is being cut way too much slack just because she claims to be a Muslim. She’s not even a real MENA Muslim or an immigrant who could pass on interesting cultural info about Islam and its traditions; she’s some dumb white kid who decided it would be cool to wear a burka! and > [@Uvula Donor](#): > > Some of her answers give me the distinct feeling that we’re being strung along for the whoosh. I’m not getting the feeling of an elaborate whoosh, but of a person who has been taken in by a cult based on an extremist Muslim sect. Much of what she posts sounds sheltered and misogynistic. The bits about separating from her family and adopting the family of her house of worship, the now-dissolved group marriage, and the earnest belief without detailed knowledge also screams “Cult Member” to me. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/64 "2005-01-28T17:09:54Z")
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t there a type of temporary marriage in Islam? She basically doesn’t sound too different from a new convert to some extreme fundie Christian church-who got “saved” at a new church by all her friends. I agree, she’s a nutter, but I’m still interested in what she has to say, if only for the “oh my GOD!” factor! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/65 "2005-01-28T17:18:13Z")
[One article on temporary marriage in Islam](http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/muta/). I fear if I tried to summarize it I would get it wrong, so please read the link. ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/66 "2005-01-28T17:44:52Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Sure, they deserve equal rights under the law. But they do not deserve special rights. Yeah but it was was about _equal_ rights that Eve asked Susan, and it was _equal_ rights that Susan confirmed they were not entitled to. And of course that was what I was repondind to. This “special rights” is something you pulled entirely out of your ass. All the more so because homosexuals havve never asked for specia rights. Clear enough? ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/67 "2005-01-28T18:12:52Z")
> [@betenoir](#): > > Yeah but it was was about _equal_ rights that Eve asked Susan, and it was _equal_ rights that Susan confirmed they were not entitled to. And of course that was what I was repondind to. This “special rights” is something you pulled entirely out of your ass. All the more so because homosexuals havve never asked for specia rights. > > Clear enough? Sure. As long as we both agree homosexuals should never request special treatment under the law (e.g. demanding a convicted perpetrator be given a tougher sentence under “hate crime legislation”), then we’re on the same page. ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/68 "2005-01-28T18:15:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t there a type of temporary marriage in Islam? Mut`ah, which is a marriage contracted for a fixed period of time. It was originally allowed for all Muslims, and was mainly used to give menfolk who were off at war a release, while still ensuring that the women they temporarily took up with wouldn’t be exploited (as much). Sunnis universally believe that its permissibility was abrogated, and that it is no longer permissible under any circumstances, whilst many Shi’ites still allow it and continue to use it. The link that was posted by **The Devil’s Grandmother** is from a Twelver Shi’ite site, and so it will give the current regulations for those groups that still practice it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/69 "2005-01-28T18:22:15Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Sure. As long as we both agree homosexuals should never request special treatment under the law (e.g. demanding a convicted perpetrator be given a tougher sentence under “hate crime legislation”), then we’re on the same page. Except, of course, that homosexuals are not the only group protected by hate crime legislation. Which. once again, moves it from “special rights” to “equal rights,” which, once again, is the only thing anyone in the gay rights movement is asking for. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/70 "2005-01-28T18:30:12Z")
> [@](#): > > This stupid bitch (if she’s sincere and not just pulling our legs) is being cut way too much slack just because she claims to be a Muslim. Having finally read the whole thing, I don’t get the feeling she’s being cut that much slack, to begin with, and the slack she has been cut is a result of her clearly being a _naïf_. (Note that she did not storm into anyone else’s thread, condemning them for violating Muslim tenets, as has frequently been the opening salvo of some of the Fundamentalist Christians who have been savaged.) The way that she handled those questions clearly indicated that she was way over her head and I suspect that some folks were just not that eager to go ripping out her guts. Now that she has demonstrated that she is, indeed, a member of one of the more “fundamentalist” groups and is perfectly willing to spout off the “party line” with the typical enthusiasm of the undereducated new convert, people are going after her more harshly. Was there some initial “holding back” based on her professed religion? Proabably some. On the other hand, it seemed to me _more_ a matter of “wait until she _really_ puts her foot in it” rather than any deference toward non-Christian religions. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/71 "2005-01-28T18:55:41Z")
> [@Carnick](#): > > Come on Dopers, you’re asleep at the helm. I know the OP is in GD, but I expect more (less?) from the legion of ignorance fighters. Stop being so level headed and break out the goddamn flame throwers already. So, let me get this straight: fighting ignorance just won’t work if we’re level-headed, calm and rational? The only way to do it is by being a bunch of obnoxious asses? Gee, I’ll bet you’re a hoot at parties, **Carnick**. > [@gobear](#): > > When Christians stop saying stupid shit […] then maybe folks like me will stop feeling nervous when you cats are in the room. And we all know that atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Buddhists, and Frisbeeterians never say any “stupid shit” (of course, you just killed that assumption with your ridiculous generality). Believe it or not, **gobear** , there are some fine, intelligent, Christians who have never handed out tracts, who have no problem with gay marriage, and who really couldn’t care less about SpongeBob Squarepants. Most of those Christians seem to be a lot more tolerant of bigoted idiots than the bigoted idiots are of them. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/72 "2005-01-28T19:11:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Except, of course, that homosexuals are not the only group protected by hate crime legislation. Which. once again, moves it from “special rights” to “equal rights,” which, once again, is the only thing anyone in the gay rights movement is asking for. Let’s say a bad guy assaults me, and he ends up getting 3 years in prison. And let’s say a bad guy assaults a homosexual (while screaming “I hate gays” while doing it), and he gets 5 years in prison. I am protected from this guy for 3 years, and the homosexual is protected from this guy for 5 years. That’s equal protection under the law? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/73 "2005-01-28T19:17:41Z")
As someone who was trying to do a lot of the holding back I’ll give my thoughts. She sounds like someone who has been taught by very bad ‘Muslims’, and she seems to repeat much of what they say. We don’t yet know if she is incapable of looking at what she is saying here and realising how evil and obnoxious it is. I would rather she tries that than having her run off the ranch straight away. The reasons I give her the benifit of doubt is that she is a recent convert and so probably has had little time for self analysis of what she has learnt, and that she seems to be isolated within a tight community of extremists so unlikely to hear decenting views, and that though her views are odnoxious she has been polite in communication and has not shown hostility others for their differing views. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/74 "2005-01-28T19:20:56Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Sure. As long as we both agree homosexuals should never request special treatment under the law (e.g. demanding a convicted perpetrator be given a tougher sentence under “hate crime legislation”), then we’re on the same page. I agree with you on that. Hate crime laws are a ridiculous overweighting of the victim’s status. I don’t if you kill me because I’m gay or you just weanted my wallet–I’m just as dead either way. > [@](#): > > Believe it or not, gobear, there are some fine, intelligent, Christians who have never handed out tracts, who have no problem with gay marriage, and who really couldn’t care less about SpongeBob Squarepants. Most of those Christians seem to be a lot more tolerant of bigoted idiots than the bigoted idiots are of them. So what? In my state, the rational Christians (if they exist) are silent as the fundie Christians get bills passed that enact legal discrimination against gay people. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/75 "2005-01-28T19:23:11Z")
Originally posted by **gobear** > [@](#): > > _People should be free to hold even the most abhorrent of views._ . Correct. Unless they act upon it, right? And I agree with **SlyFrog** > [@](#): > > - Sorely lacking fundamentalist muslims"? Are we short on 88ers too? Perhaps we could throw up a big broad welcome to all groups of hate filled murderers, so long as they are not white men or christians.\* I’m really not all that thrilled to have posters condoning people getting stoned to death. But hey. That’s just me. The atheïst. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/76 "2005-01-28T19:27:23Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > “Sorely lacking fundamentalist muslims”? Are we short on 88ers too? Perhaps we could throw up a big broad welcome to all groups of hate filled murderers, so long as they are not white men or christians. Yes, because Lord knows, there are no while male Christians around here already. Damned if I ever heard one of _them_ articulate his point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/77 "2005-01-28T19:40:21Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Let’s say a bad guy assaults me, and he ends up getting 3 years in prison. And let’s say a bad guy assaults a homosexual (while screaming “I hate gays” while doing it), and he gets 5 years in prison. I am protected from this guy for 3 years, and the homosexual is protected from this guy for 5 years. That’s equal protection under the law? 😕 And if a black guy is attacked by someone screaming “I hate black people,” he gets a longer sentence. And if a Jew is attack by someone screaming “I hate Jews,” he gets a longer sentence. And if you got attacked by a guy screaming “I hate white people,” or “I hate Christians,” I suspect he would also get a longer sentence, although I confess that I’m not certain about that. Even if that’s not the case, it’s not an example of gays asking for special rights, but of whites/Christians being denied equal protection. Which is wrong, but that’s not what you’re complaining about. Mind you, I’m not actually in favor of hate crime legislation. But to call them “special rights for gays” is flat-out wrong. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/78 "2005-01-28T19:41:00Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Originally posted by **gobear**. Correct. Unless they act upon it, right? Quite so. I have no problem with being told I’m going to Hell, but I would take exception to someone taking it upon himself to help send me there. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/79 "2005-01-28T19:43:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And if you got attacked by a guy screaming “I hate white people,” or “I hate Christians,” I suspect he would also get a longer sentence, although I confess that I’m not certain about that. He definitely would–and I remember reading that at least early attempts at race-hate-crimes legislation were activated more often when white folks were the victims than when nonwhite folks were the victims. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/80 "2005-01-28T22:13:36Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > I agree that in an enlightened society, intelligent people would abandon the childish idea of an invisible man sitting in the clouds who hands out arbitrary suffering for His own amusement, a sort of celestial Saddam Hussein to whom one must make obeisance in the hope that one may avert His wrath through sufficient toadying. > > The crucial point is that each person must come to that realization freely, not through government edict. If people want to believe in the supernatural, I’ll mock them but I won’t do anything to prevent them. And if there were some sort of persecution of the kind that **Crafter\_Man** and his ilk like to pretend exists, I would be on his side in the fight. People should be free to hold even the most abhorrent of views. So many times, when I read your posts, I honestly don’t understand why you and I don’t get along. It must be I. I’m putting myself on notice: stop and think before responding to Gobear, and don’t assume that he’s picking a fight. I’m proud to be associated with you, young man, as a member at SDMB. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087.md?page=5)