# Stop being so civil! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 28, 2005, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087 "2005-01-28T11:13:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![bashere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@bashere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bashere)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/81 "2005-01-28T22:46:28Z")
Brief hijack: > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Let’s say a bad guy assaults me, and he ends up getting 3 years in prison. And let’s say a bad guy assaults a homosexual (while screaming “I hate gays” while doing it), and he gets 5 years in prison. I am protected from this guy for 3 years, and the homosexual is protected from this guy for 5 years. That’s equal protection under the law? 😕 You should let the FBI know your little theory. The [Hate Crime Statistics](http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hatecm.htm) published by the FBI report (for 1995; I didn’t want to spend more than 10 seconds on the research) report 17 incidents motivated because the victim was striaght, and 1,226 where the victim was white. You may disagree with the idea of hate crimes **in general** , you may feel that the legal system is inherently flawed because it penalizes crimes with certain motives more heavily than arbitrary crimes of opportunity, but the idea that they do not protect white christian males to exactly the same extent as they protect black gay druids is simply incorrect. Sorry for the hijack. I read the thread in question, and figured that there was a certain sick fascination that kept people polite. Sort of a “Tell us again how if your husband beats you it’s okay. Oh, and you joined this religion voluntarily?” The “Ask the Muslim guy” thread made for a particularly fascinating contrast. ---
**Author:** ![Carnick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carnick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnick)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/82 "2005-01-28T23:17:52Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > **Carnick** : I also believe homosexuality is wrong, abnormal, abhorrent, immoral, and sinful. So are you going to pit _me_ now? :rolleyes: Wow, I think you win the prize for completely missing the point of the OP. Read it again trail mix, and this time post a reply that’s on topic. In the mean time I’m going to consider you a troll. ---
**Author:** ![Carnick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carnick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnick)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/83 "2005-01-28T23:20:00Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > But you’re spot on in saying that there’s a double standard here. This stupid bitch (if she’s sincere and not just pulling our legs) is being cut way too much slack just because she claims to be a Muslim. She’s not even a real MENA Muslim or an immigrant who could pass on interesting cultural info about Islam and its traditions; she’s some dumb white kid who decided it would be cool to wear a burka! Precisely. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/84 "2005-01-28T23:22:17Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > **Carnick** : I also believe homosexuality is wrong, abnormal, abhorrent, immoral, and sinful. So are you going to pit _me_ now? :rolleyes: > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Let’s say a bad guy assaults me, and he ends up getting 3 years in prison. And let’s say a bad guy assaults a homosexual (while screaming “I hate gays” while doing it), and he gets 5 years in prison. I am protected from this guy for 3 years, and the homosexual is protected from this guy for 5 years. That’s equal protection under the law? Hell no that ain’t fair! Faggot had it coming, right? Homo _knows_ it’s abnormal and immoral and sinful, and he still wouldn’t fuckin’ stop doin’ it! Gotta knock some sense into the little fucker. Are you with me, guys? What the fuck, dude? Are you seriously trying to say that the most salient point in the whole discussion of gay rights is equal treatment for the knuckle-draggers who are beating people up on the street? Yeah, great point. Why are you so uptight about ensuring fair treatment of the violent? You want to talk about equal rights, you twat? How’s about we get a list of some of your rights: 1. You can marry someone you’re in love with. 2. You can marry someone you’re not in love with. 3. You can adopt a child. 4. You’re guaranteed that if you’re fired from your job, it’s because of incompetence, not because of who you have sex with. Why don’t we try and make sure that everybody gets _that_ – here’s a hint: I don’t have 3 of those, because of my whole abnormality and sinful behavior – and _then_ we can start worrying about the rights of the people who go smearing queers or nigger-hunting or taking back the streets from the Yellow Menace or the fucking towelheads. I don’t know about you, but I’d prefer it if _nobody_ had to worry about getting assualted when they go out on the street. Whether the people that do that get 3 years or 5 years doesn’t make a bit of difference to me. And once we get that kind of society to happen, then you’re perfectly free to keep on calling me immoral and sinful, and I’m perfectly free to keep calling you a fucking idiot homophobe and wonder why the hell you’re so concerned about who I have sex with, when I don’t give a rat’s ass about what you do with your dick. And that sounds like equal treatment to me. ---
**Author:** ![Jillyvn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Jillyvn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillyvn)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/85 "2005-01-29T01:06:48Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > \ > > You want to talk about equal rights, you twat? How’s about we get a list of some of your rights: > > 1. You can marry someone you’re in love with. > 2. You can marry someone you’re not in love with. > 3. You can adopt a child. > 4. You’re guaranteed that if you’re fired from your job, it’s because of incompetence, not because of who you have sex with. > > Why don’t we try and make sure that everybody gets _that_ – here’s a hint: I don’t have 3 of those, because of my whole abnormality and sinful behavior – and _then_ we can start worrying about the rights of the people who go smearing queers or nigger-hunting or taking back the streets from the Yellow Menace or the fucking towelheads. > > I don’t know about you, but I’d prefer it if _nobody_ had to worry about getting assualted when they go out on the street. Whether the people that do that get 3 years or 5 years doesn’t make a bit of difference to me. > > And once we get that kind of society to happen, then you’re perfectly free to keep on calling me immoral and sinful, and I’m perfectly free to keep calling you a fucking idiot homophobe and wonder why the hell you’re so concerned about who I have sex with, when I don’t give a rat’s ass about what you do with your dick. And that sounds like equal treatment to me. I have witnessed first hand the violence against some of my friends who been gay/lesbian. I hope I’ve interpreted your comments properly. I agree with you that the foundation of equal rights would go a long way into establishing an equal application of the law. Until the point in time, I think hate crimes legislation is important. The level of bigotry I’ve seen against my glbt friends and, lately, muslim friends, continues to astound me and seems to be in a special case of its own. Until one of your friends has had his ass kicked for being a fag, I don’t think you can say that the three vs. five years argument makes any sense. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/86 "2005-01-29T01:37:23Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > **Carnick** : I also believe homosexuality is wrong, abnormal, abhorrent, immoral, and sinful. So are you going to pit _me_ now? :rolleyes: We pitted you by proxy some years ago. I remember being underwhelmed by your ability to present a cogent argument. However, some good did come of it; we got word from a researcher of child molestation indicating that, contrary to what is ignorant belief in some places, pedophiles are much, much, much more likely to be straight than gay. [sub]It’s so hard to be wrong, abnormal, abhorrent, immoral and sinful all in the same day … good thing I only need to average 12 hours of each.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/87 "2005-01-29T02:33:56Z")
I stayed out of the thread that I thought was bing discussed here. I figured she’s new and naive. I got bored quickly. Now we are on another tangent, that being who gets to bash who and how “unfair” the punishment is. Here’s the thing. Some of us don’t really care what you think, until you act on it. When you try to pass laws and resolutions that tell us we are second class citizens, outsiders in our own land, we get “concerned”. When you complain about the “harshness” of hate crime laws, we get “concerned”. There was a kid in Wyoming (?) who was beat to death because the local good ole boys thought he was gay. Not for money, not for revenge, not even out of fear, just for spite. Beat to death. Is that sort of thing OK with you? If you really want to run around smashing gays, blacks, Iraqis, Jews, midgets, crosseyed folks, whatever, have the fucking gonads to pay the penalty. Of course that is not likely, since the knuckle draggers who do these things have no balls unless they are in a group. No stomach for any one on one. They usually need to drink up a lot of bottled courage too. Fuck them all. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/88 "2005-01-29T02:58:25Z")
> [@](#): > > **gobear** : In my state, the rational Christians (if they exist) are silent as the fundie > Christians get bills passed that enact legal discrimination against gay people. Nyah! They are just more likely not to make a big production of their religious beliefs, but they work through organizations such as [People for the American Way](http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=77) and the American Civil Liberties Union. I did look to see what Unity churches in Virginia I could locate and just picked one at random in Chesapeake, Virginia. By an eery coincidence, I think that the man who wrote [this newsletter](http://www.unityrenaissance.org/Dec_04.pdf) may have been the most gifted minister I ever had here in Nashville. The first column gives you his and the church’s attitude about inclusiveness in general. I must confess that my brief googling of Christian activist organizations in Virginia was not a pleasant experience. I hope that you are working with an organization that does give you a sense of empowerment. Doing something positive about your feelings of frustration is cathartic. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/89 "2005-01-30T00:40:44Z")
**Sol** , unless I’m misreading **Crafter\_Man** , I don’t think he’ saying that the attacker in his hypothetical does not have equal protection under the law, but that the _victim_ does not have equal protection under the law. If beating up a gay guy gets you five years in prison, but beating up a straight guy only gets you three years, than gays are “more protected” than straights. The flaw in his argument, obviously, is that his hypothetical bears no actual resemblence to real life. Hate crime legislation does not protect gays any more than members of any other recognizable minority/religion/ethnicity. The validity of hate crime legislation aside, as written they protect all citizens equally. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/90 "2005-01-30T02:53:27Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I also believe homosexuality is wrong, abnormal, abhorrent, immoral, and sinful. So are you going to pit me now? What would be the point? I suspect you’re one of those dirtbags who’d repeat the quote and then claim you don’t hate gay people - and get mad at the folks who said you did. Let’s face it, you’re pretty much a waste of flesh - why would anyone bother to open a whole thread over you? > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Sure. As long as we both agree homosexuals should never request special treatment under the law (e.g. demanding a convicted perpetrator be given a tougher sentence under “hate crime legislation”), then we’re on the same page. And I can understand that, while I support hate crime laws, many people don’t. I can see where they’re coming from (since I used to agree with them) and I’d be happy to debate it with you, if it wasn’t so clear that you’re not interested in any open discussion of the subject. Too bad you’ve got such an axe to grind that you’d jump in, out of nowhere, to say what you said above. > [@Liberal](#): > > I don’t think it’s PC. It’s an intellectual immaturity, born of an almost zealous hatred of anything Christian. Sort of an enemy-of-my-enemy thing. In fact, I would wager that this post — questioning the intellectual honesty of the suck-ups in that thread — will garner far more hysterical drive-bys and retorts than the post you cited that compares gays to drug dealers and child abusers. Further, I believe that a Christian fundamentalist _posting the exact same thing_ would already have been pitted here and run out on a rail. :rolleyes: Yeah, because look at Polycarp - Christian through and through, and as such, perhaps the most hated figure on the boards. Every post of his inspires a pile-on; the threads pitting him for his beliefs are a daily occurence. Though I gotta say, compared to the scumbag I quoted above, or the pathetic moron who inspired this thread, you’re seeming downright reasonable, Liberal. > [@vinryk](#): > > You are very right. > Upon reading it back and your comments, I can see where you are coming from. > I meant it differently though, but I am a bit of a :wally > What I meant was that in an enlightened society religion shouldn’t exist. > . > . > . > . > OK, that also sound really stupid. > You know what : you are right, I am stupid. Looks like you got it right, after several tries! > [@gobear](#): > > And this is the stupidest comment of all; in a free society, one does not allow the government to dictate what forms of expression may be allowed. An “enlightened” society that forbade religion would be an oxymoron–official tyranny exerted over individual freedom of conscience is not in any way enlightened. > > People should be free to worship imaginary people in any way they see fit, and I will remain free to laugh at them. Gobear, the folks like you who try to ensure that beliefs they don’t share (or sometimes even hate) remain protected are vital to the survival of enlightened society. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/91 "2005-01-30T07:07:31Z")
Well, Sarah W strikes me a goof and a doof and a stooge and a typically overzealous convert, but calling her or Aldeberan “dangerous” is ridiculous. They’re just… dumb, and happy to turn off the thinking parts of the brains. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/92 "2005-01-30T11:10:33Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Yeah, because look at Polycarp - Christian through and through, and as such, perhaps the most hated figure on the boards. Every post of his inspires a pile-on; the threads pitting him for his beliefs are a daily occurence. I don’t normally think of Poly as a fundamentalist — which is what I wrote about and what you responded to — though your mileage may vary. If you do think of him that way, then you should discourage usage of the pejorative “fundie” out of respect to such a revered board figure. If you do not think of him that way, then you should apologize to me for misrepresenting my remarks. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/93 "2005-01-30T11:52:33Z")
> [@Originally Posted by Excalibre](#): > > Yeah, because look at Polycarp - Christian through and through, and as such, perhaps the most hated figure on the boards. Every post of his inspires a pile-on; the threads pitting him for his beliefs are a daily occurence. Quite to the contrary, **Polycarp** is one of the most respected dopers. I never even knew he was a fundy. And that says a lot. 99% of his posts are valid, yet never even mention religion. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/94 "2005-01-30T11:58:40Z")
Excalibre was being sarcastic, Eleusis. I believe that Poly calls himself a “liberal Christian”. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/95 "2005-01-30T12:19:38Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I don’t normally think of Poly as a fundamentalist — which is what I wrote about and what you responded to — though your mileage may vary. But that’s not all you wrote about. You originally referred to an “intellectual immaturity, born of an almost zealous hatred of anything Christian”; although you also talked about a “Christian fundamentalist” posting the same things that **Sarah W** posted, it’s not clear from your first post in this thread that you are writing only about fundamentalist Christianity. (Emphasis added in both quotations.) ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/96 "2005-01-30T12:23:22Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Excalibre was being sarcastic, Eleusis. I believe that Poly calls himself a “liberal Christian”. OK, _whoosh_. Thanks, bro. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/97 "2005-01-30T17:36:09Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > But that’s not all you wrote about. You originally referred to an “intellectual immaturity, born of an almost zealous hatred of anything Christian”; although you also talked about a “Christian fundamentalist” posting the same things that **Sarah W** posted, it’s not clear from your first post in this thread that you are writing only about fundamentalist Christianity. (Emphasis added in both quotations.) The portion to which Exclibre directly responded was the portion about pitting: “Every post of his inspires a pile-on; the threads \*\*pitting \*\* him for his beliefs are a daily occurence.” (Emphasis added.) That was the portion that specified fundamentalists — as you yourself noted. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/98 "2005-01-30T18:24:21Z")
Of **course** I’m a Fundamentalist – I hold to the fundamentals of Christianity as defined by Jesus of Nazareth, as opposed to the TULIP points defined by that guy back in 1910. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/99 "2005-01-30T19:53:20Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Of **course** I’m a Fundamentalist – I hold to the fundamentals of Christianity as defined by Jesus of Nazareth, as opposed to the TULIP points defined by that guy back in 1910. 😃 Beautifully said. Is it any wonder that Edlyn and I adore you and your wonderful wife? Please tell her that we hope she is well. Y’all need to come see us sometime. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087/100 "2005-01-31T02:14:24Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > The portion to which Exclibre directly responded was the portion about pitting: “Every post of his inspires a pile-on; the threads \*\*pitting \*\* him for his beliefs are a daily occurence.” (Emphasis added.) That was the portion that specified fundamentalists — as you yourself noted. Now it looks to me like you’re misrepresenting **Excalibre** ’s remarks. He quoted your entire post, not just the part about “a Christian fundamentalist” getting pitted, and he doesn’t just talk about people opening Pit threads, but also about “pile ons”, which can happen in any forum. You talked about “an almost zealous hatred of anything Christian” on the boards; mentioning the general reputation of **Polycarp** (or **tomndebb** , or **Siege** ) is a reasonable come back to that, and rather than addressing the point, you are trying to make everyone think **Excalibre** said something other than what he plainly said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-being-so-civil/287087.md?page=6)