# Stop blindly following your government and question it for God sake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 12, 2002, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797 "2002-03-12T06:50:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/41 "2002-03-12T17:56:33Z")
Actually, the OP uses the civilian casualty figures as an example for the core argument, which is that U.S. citizens should question their government more often. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/42 "2002-03-12T18:08:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by samboy \* > \*\*The “I don’t care what you think” attitude of the American population combined with the influencing nature of US foreign policy is what creates/fuels anti-American sentiment around the world and eventually leads to terrorism. \*\* I am afraid that you have cause and effect mixed up. The “I don’t care what you think” attitude is _caused_ by anti-American sentiment, at least in part. Here we have the US engaged in actions that no morally sensible person can condemn. We are acting in self-defense against those who are harboring the ungrateful individuals who responded to our arming them so they could kick the Soviets out, and to us keeping Saddam Hussein from conquering Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, by bombing our skyscrapers and killing innocent people. And yet there is a constant barrage of criticism, not against Osama bin Laden for attacking us, or the Taliban for giving them aid and comfort, but against the US. I have already questioned the justification of the US action against the Taliban. I find it to be entirely praiseworthy and restrained. I believe the loss of life in Afghanistan to be far less than the number necessary to cause me to re-think the action. I expected going in that more than a few Afghanis would die. The fact that the dead Afghanis numbers in the hundreds or thousands and that the dead Americans numbers less than 50 is very much my preferred outcome. I have considered and continue to consider the reasoning of those who oppose the US actions. Almost without exception, I find it either incomprehensible or contemptible. Witness **floater** ’s apparant belief that the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was justifiable, but the American effort to apprehend or eliminate those who attack us is not. People who say stupid things lose their right to be taken seriously. Telling me to disbelieve CNN but to take whatever Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting tells me at face value is such a thing. > [@](#): > > The road to truth is long, and lined the whole way with annoying bastards. The road to victory over the latest batch of terrorists is no different. Once and for all - we are acting in our own interests, and in defense of our own citizens. I, for one, did not request and do not require your approval. The dogs bark, but the caravan marches on. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/43 "2002-03-12T18:25:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\* By devaluing the opinions of people who are currently questioning the actions of your government, **spooje** : “if you have a problem with it, I don’t care”, rather than engaging in debate, I think you are indeed edging just that little way towards “obedience”. \*\* Apparently, if I’m not willing to put my entire life on hold and spend every spare minute I’ve got debating with the likes of you, I’m a brainwashed, flagwaving robot. When you address us with open contempt, don’t be surprised if we’re not interested in listening. An awful lot of that criticism is hypocritical and dishonest. A little while back the lefties tried to kick up a fuss about conditions at the prison camp at Guantanamo Bay when it was painfully obvious that no reasonable person would have complained. The lefties tried to kick up a stink about civilian casualties in Afghanistan when the simple fact is that no one can have an accurate count at this time, and it is quite likely that no one ever will. America and Americans have gone to literally ridiculous lengths to avoid characterizing all Muslims and all Arabs as “the enemy,” and yet we are told that we are hovering on the brink of fascist repression. You can only cry wolf so many times before people stop listening. Literally hundreds of millions of Muslims insist that the 911 attacks were the work of the CIA or the Zionists. Muslim terrorism seems to spring up everywhere the Muslim world comes into contact with the non-Muslim world. The Islamic fascists have targeted literally everyone who does not share their religion and their politics, even some of their fellow Muslims–yet you and those like you seem to think that American “cowboy-ism” is somehow the real problem. When criticism is as distorted, biased and two-faced as that, why _should_ we listen to you? ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/44 "2002-03-12T18:53:39Z")
The premise of the OP is fine and I agree with it. Don’t blindly accept what the government says and question government policies. However, neither should one blindly accept criticism of a government. Using what appear (to me) biased sources in support of the argument doesn’t help the argument. I question the US government **a lot**. Civilian casualties are a very bad thing. There have been a few somewhat ambiguous cases where the US has perhaps minimized the possibility that civilians have been killed. However, overall I find the US to be more credible than sources that give inflated estimates of casualties. If I were forced to pull a number out of the air, I might pick something like 1000 civilian deaths. Could the actual number be quite a bit less or quite a bit more? Of course, but it gives me an order of magnitude to get my mind around the size of the problem. For those who argue that the civilian deaths make our actions in Afghanistan unacceptable, please consider this. If the US had done nothing, how many Afghans would have died at the hands of the Taliban? How many would have starved to death that are now finally getting some humanitarian relief? How many woman would have died for lack of medical care? The numbers are so far beyond even the most pessimistic estimates of civilian casualties, that I can’t even imagine that someone would think that having the US do nothing is somehow the “greater good”. Criticize (fairly) the US. Insist on great efforts to minimize civilian casualties. Just don’t pick and choose some facts over others. And please make your own judgment about facts in disagreement and realize that people may have agendas on both sides. Just my opinion, take it or leave it as you will. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/45 "2002-03-12T19:05:57Z")
**LonesomePolecat** while you are correct that there is a lot of anti-US bullshit out there that does not mean that all criticisms of the US should be viewed as “Lefty” nonsense. > [@](#): > > A little while back the lefties tried to kick up a fuss about conditions at the prison camp at Guantanamo Bay when it was painfully obvious that no reasonable person would have complained My Government (and many more I would guess) asked questions of your Ambassador and government about this very issue. There were concerns about how and why these people where moved. Groups such as Amnesty, the Red Cross and The UN Commissioner for Human Rights also expressed concerns. Now a lot of their issues where addressed later on **but** they where still correct in asking these questions, in the same way that it was correct to ask questions about how the British Govern. dealt with Irish people suspected of hideous IRA crimes in the 70’s and 80’s ( at the time everything was AOK officially but years later horrible miscarriages of justice where unearthed e.g. Birmingham Six). Just because there are a lot of fucking muppets out there that want to shit on the US at every possible chance they get doesn’t mean that other people cannot question your or any government. **Strictly IMHO** : I have always noticed that the majority of Americans I have meet have been less open to critiques of their country than any other nationality **I** have meet. There is a pride and a patriotism that a lot of Americans feel that seems different than other countries. Since Sept. 11th this seems to have gone through the roof. You can say fuck all on this site about what the States is doing without somebody taking you up wrong (see **Monty’s** pit thread) or calling you a lefty US hating bastard. Not everyone is a lefty [you use that term as if it’s a insult BTW, IMO it’s not as I would consider myself quite right wing (by American standards I’d be VERY right wing)] who wants to piss on your country. Some people are just asking questions and in the case of the OP making a lot of sense. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/46 "2002-03-12T19:10:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sirjamesp \* > **I thought the topic of conversation here was the US - so I imagine that is why samboy referred to the US.Except that if they print negative coverage, or suggest that toning down the rhetoric might be a good idea, then they will be accused of being “unpatriotic” and “un-American” - as indeed has samboy for suggesting that it would be good to “question, question, question” the government.** You’re right, the topic is definitely the US, and the OP alleges that this country is underreporting casualties (they are probably lying.) And furthermore, people who aren’t seeing this much bigger amount of casualties are blind followers. Is that right so far? I respectfully disagree, and assert that any figures quoted by the Taliban should be viewed with equal or more suspicion than the US figures (because they are probably lying.) That’s all. Please continue. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/47 "2002-03-12T19:26:54Z")
Apropos to this discussion: [Cicero Was Wrong](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/12/opinion/12KRIS.html) I share **samboy** ’s impression that too little questioning of this administration’s WoT is being done by the major media. And I agree that such questioning (and I’m talking about _reasonable_ questioning and criticism here, not “lefty bullshit” or anti-America propoganda) is often met with abusive and obfuscatory language portraying America as the world’s only Good Guy and the questioner as a terrorist sympathizer. Witness the hysterical language directed against the [quite lowkeyed] Opening Rant. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/48 "2002-03-12T19:27:56Z")
**Polecat** , are you **spooje** in disguise, acting all hurt? I don’t know where you’ve seen me doing all the things you’re apparently accusing me of (“open contempt”, “distorted, biased and two-faced”). But **stop being so _fucking defensive_**! If someone had a thread opened that said “The Chinese Government are repressive bastards” or “I am sickened by Putin’s policies in Chechnya”, or indeed “The way the British government has behaved in Northern Ireland is reprehensible” dontcha know I’d be in there agreeing with the OP. But you don’t get many threads like that. They’re mostly about the US. This is a board populated by many Americans. American foreign policy is very prominent. A lot of the OPs on this board are therefore about America. And some posters to this board are opposed to a lot of US foreign policy. That doesn’t mean we’re all ‘America is always wrong’ posters. I don’t like some American foreign policy. I shall criticise it if I see fit. This doesn’t mean I dislike America. On the contrary, I love the place. Go on, ask me what I think of Al Qaeda - I dare you - though I personally think the vast majority of people would take it as blindingly obvious what they are. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/49 "2002-03-12T19:41:15Z")
> [@](#): > > By a fucking idiot called yojimbo > Not everyone is a lefty [you use that term as if it’s a insult BTW, IMO it’s not as I would consider myself quite right wing (by American standards I’d be VERY right wing)] who wants to piss on your country. Some people are just asking questions and in the case of the OP making a lot of sense. Change a couple of rights for left and you have it 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/50 "2002-03-12T19:57:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sauron \* > \*\*Actually, the OP uses the civilian casualty figures as an example for the core argument, which is that U.S. citizens should question their government more often. \*\* Sounds to me like the argument is that USAers should stop blindly following their government and blindly follow **samboy** and his blindly questioning everything about the government. If you want to get mad at the US government, there are _THOUSANDS_ of better things to argue about. But where are you from, samboy? Never Never-land where the government does no wrong? Or are you just mad you have to pay taxes! Your tax dollars go towards bombing babies, so YOU are a murderer!!! Don’t give me any of your self-righteous crap, you’re just as evil as the rest of us! And you don’t even feel sorry about it, you just blame big targets because you’re too small of a man to admit you own problems!! This planet sucks, the human race sucks, and you suck! Do you have a better solution to deal with these people? I didn’t think so, too busy complaining about concepts you can’t even understand. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/51 "2002-03-12T19:59:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Stop blindly following your government and question it for God sake The words of a person who knows nothing about America… you might as well go about advocating that Ford should build cars. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/52 "2002-03-12T20:11:19Z")
_Samboy said_ > [@](#): > > People (mainly in the US) should not accept everything that CNN or the State Department holds up for them. But getting your numbers from a UNH econ professor, who got his data from the Pakistani newspapers, now THAT’S a valid source beyond question. Samboy, despite what you may think, there’s a fairly large segment of the US that doesn’t care much for Bush or several facets of the War on Terrorism (OTOH there are some that I agree with) but support both for lack of a viable alternative. Not blindly support, but support. Just because everyone doesn’t launch into a Sontag/Comskyesque rant about how wrong the US is doesn’t mean that we wholeheartedly agree. ---
**Author:** ![Demise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@Demise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demise)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/53 "2002-03-12T20:12:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > \*\*Here’s a [BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1626000/1626464.stm) report from the 29 October, 2001 claiming 1500 civilian deaths. I would assume that figure has increased considerably since then. \*\* Why would you assume that? Why would using any kind of extrapolation that keeps the amount of civilian death constant across every day be considered even close to accurate? If you haven’t kept abreast of things, most military action in Afghanistan is currently taking place far away from the cities where civilians deaths would be most likely. Hard to claim thousands of civilians are dieing in places where there aren’t thousands of civilians, period. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/54 "2002-03-12T20:42:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\* > The words of a person who knows nothing about America… you might as well go about advocating that Ford should build cars. \*\* If you think there aren’t people and organizations in the US who equate criticism of the US’s actions in war with a lack of patriotism, then it is you who fail to understand America, or have been lucky enough to not have contact with the fools who believe such things. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/55 "2002-03-12T22:18:15Z")
Agreed, Revtim. I really resent the conservative commentators who respond with “How can you criticize a president in this time of crisis” and who have been milking 9/11 and the War on Terror in order to support their party platform. Granted these are the inflammatory folks who get on CNN et al and who want to make people mad for the sake of ratings. Likewise, when the press secretary comes out and says something to the effect of “Why do you care about the prisoners in Cuba? They’re evil people and terrorists, so stop asking!” I also get angry. Human rights don’t stop for people we perceive as evil – otherwise, having human rights at all seems useless as that’s when they’re needed! I have mixed feelings about bombing Afghanistan. On the one hand, American lives should be protected and that can’t be possible by only monitoring within our borders; plus, the Taliban was an occupying force anyways and I’m loathe to support them. On the other hand, the native Afghans didn’t live in a democracy (I want to scream every time I see “if the Afghans didn’t want to get bombed, they shouldn’t have supported terrorists”) As with Iraqi sanctions, bombing seemed to hurt the wrong people. I will say one thing: I am sickened by people who claim that it’s justified to kill any number of people in Afghanistan to save a handful of American lives. Just because they aren’t American citizens doesn’t make them animals – I don’t believe even animals should be subject to that sort of a blanket statement. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/56 "2002-03-12T22:37:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\* > > If you think there aren’t people and organizations in the US who equate criticism of the US’s actions in war with a lack of patriotism, then it is you who fail to understand America, or have been lucky enough to not have contact with the fools who believe such things. \*\* Here here! After all, to keep our country as good as it is, we need to criticize, to speak up when we see abuse. We look at totalitarian states, and how they came about-and those who were willing to speak up were denounced as traitors and unpatriotic. NOT that I am saying that we’re going to end up a totalitarian state. We’re not. But the very idea that if you criticize the government, you’re unAmerican-that’s absolute bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/57 "2002-03-12T22:47:14Z")
**samboy** , I’m curious what steps you - personally - have taken to question our own government’s coalition with the US government in the “war on terrorism”. Since you’ve seen fit to tell the Merkins how they should use the democratic process to find out what’s “really” happening in Afghanistan and that they should put pressure on their political representatives to end it, I expect you’ve been very busy of late filing FOI requests and contacting **our** MPs and Senators to express your outrage at the decisions they have taken and the course of action they are pursuing on your behalf. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/58 "2002-03-12T23:05:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > But the very idea that if you criticize the government, you’re unAmerican-that’s absolute bullshit. Well, actually the OP was saying we don’t criticize or question the government enough. Which is kinda funny to me, seeing as how that’s what we do most of the time. Heck, even in that study **samboy** cited regarding civilian casualties, half the sources were American newspaper or wire service stories. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/59 "2002-03-12T23:16:12Z")
I don’t even see where anyone called **samboy** anti-American. More from the UNH independent study: > [@](#): > > What causes the documented high level of civilian casualties – 3,767 civilian deaths in eight and a half weeks – in the U.S. air war upon Afghanistan? > > The explanation is the apparent willingness of U.S. military strategists to fire missiles into and drop bombs upon, heavily populated areas of Afghanistan. Is it ‘patriotism’ if I think this guy is full of it? I don’t think his numbers are correct, or any more correct than anyone else’s. I assume there’s fighting going on, and the Taliban aren’t just milling about - no civilian casualties are attributed to them, or the Northern Alliance. I could go on, but there’s also this: > [@](#): > > The sacrificed Afghan civilians are not ‘white’ whereas the overwhelming number of U.S. pilots and elite ground troups are white. This ‘reality’ serves to amplify the positive benefit-cost ratio of certainly sacrificing darker Afghans today [and Indochinese, Iraqis yesterday] for the benefit of probably saving American soldier-citizens tomorrow. It’s all about the elitist white government anyway. ---
**Author:** ![abel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@abel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abel)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2002, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797/60 "2002-03-12T23:59:50Z")
I think I understand what samboy was trying to say originally. People too often cheer something on just because it’s the popular thing to do, without thinking about the consequences of that something on others. George W. Bush has one of the highest approval ratings in history, and frankly, he’s not that brilliant of a president. I can say that, because 1. I’m a Republican 2. I voted for him However, we support what he’s doing because he’s our leader and we need to fight this “war on terror”. Sure, blow up the terrorists, I’m all about that. But we follow our government blindly without questioning their methods. We just want the problem over and done with, and would rather not get involved at all. It’s like parents who have nannies watch their children, because they’re too busy, and they lose track of everything going on in their child’s life. We get so distracted by other, “more important” issues in our lives that we don’t examine issues the way we ought to, and we do not stay informed about things that, frankly, are highly relevant to our lives. If that’s what samboy means, then frankly, I agree with him. In my experience, people are generally far too self-involved and self-seeking to pay attention to important issues in the rest of the world. One of the reasons I enjoy spending time on THIS board is because I find that most of you take the time to become informed and educate each other. That’s not only admirable, but also an important part of being a citizen in this democracy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-blindly-following-your-government-and-question-it-for-god-sake/97797.md?page=4)