# Stop enunciating the fucking "h".... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 15, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114 "2015-05-15T16:04:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/61 "2015-05-19T04:22:00Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Most Dubliners do pronounce the hs in think and three, it is just softer than in some other accents. All this talk about pronouncing the H is misleading, because no one really pronounces an H. TH is a digraph–two letters that make only one sound. It’s just that the sound is different in Irish accents than in most others. In most accents, voiceless TH is a fricative that is made with the tongue situated between both teeth, touching and slightly overlapping the top ones. As a fricative, it is sound that can be made continually, as long as you continue to have enough breath. In Ireland and a few other places (parts of New York, Newfoundland), voiceless TH is a stop that is made in a similar position, but not as far forward. (the tongue can still be behind the teeth.) It comes out sounding very much like the sound T always makes. In those accents, “tie” and “thigh” come out sounding almost the same or even exactly the same. There are also some accents that realize a voiceless TH as an F, another fricative that sounds similar to the one mentioned above. However, it is made with the upper teeth situated on the bottom lip. In those accents, the word “fink” and “think” sound the same. (I’d use IPA in this, but I think it would be confusing, since /θ/ and [θ] mean two completely different things.) > [@](#): > > So Thai isn’t pronounced like thigh? News to me. Not in those places where TH and T sound completely different. It is a homophone of “tie,” and the country is called “tie-land.” ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/62 "2015-05-19T09:20:17Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > …in “w_H_at” and “w_H_en” and “w_H_y”. > > Who taught you to talk like that?.. It’s goddamn pretentious and irritating. > > Knock it off. It’s standard English pronunciation, and you sound ignorant with this. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/63 "2015-05-19T10:57:41Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > It’s standard English pronunciation, and you sound ignorant with this. As discussed earlier, it’s nonstandard in all but a very few accents. ---
**Author:** ![Arch\_Trout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@Arch\_Trout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arch_Trout)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/64 "2015-05-19T11:31:43Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > As discussed earlier, it’s nonstandard in all but a very few accents. But standard in English, which is top trump, so I’m not sure your point. If others want to bastardise the language that is their perogative but to complain about people talking properly is a bit rich. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/65 "2015-05-19T11:42:29Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > There are also some accents that realize a voiceless TH as an F, another fricative that sounds similar to the one mentioned above. However, it is made with the upper teeth situated on the bottom lip. In those accents, the word “fink” and “think” sound the same. Thanks for your informative post. Where does pronouncing WH with an F come into all this? I’ve heard (though it’s not that common) “fwhat/fwhy”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/66 "2015-05-19T11:43:41Z")
> [@Arch\_Trout](#): > > But standard in English, which is top trump, so I’m not sure your point. > If others want to bastardise the language that is their perogative but to complain about people talking properly is a bit rich. _prerogative_ ---
**Author:** ![Arch\_Trout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@Arch\_Trout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arch_Trout)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/67 "2015-05-19T12:17:02Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > _prerogative_ Argh, that’s what I get for not checking my work :o ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/68 "2015-05-19T12:21:42Z")
Though in rapid everyday speech, I’m sure the distinction is usually lost, still, when pronouncing the words alone out of context, I definitely pronounce “y” and “why” differently, with a bit of aspiration on the initial sound in “why”. I guess I’m pretentious, though I thought I was just talking. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/69 "2015-05-19T12:29:47Z")
These are perfectly good pronunciations and o resent their being treated in this shabby manner. As a result of this thread I’m going to emphasize the distinction between pronunciations of witch and which as strongly as I can. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/70 "2015-05-19T13:01:54Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > _prerogative_ It’s our purgative to employ Malapropisms. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/71 "2015-05-19T14:15:57Z")
> [@Arch\_Trout](#): > > But standard in English False, as already discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/72 "2015-05-19T14:20:45Z")
“Less popular” does not mean “nonstandard.” There are plenty of pronunciations that are less common that are standard, meaning not disparaged uses. A standard pronunciation is one that is accepted in the prestige dialect. Even prestige dialects allow for some variations in pronunciations. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/73 "2015-05-19T14:31:00Z")
Which “prestige dialect” do you have in mind? The wine/whine merger is long gone in RP, and only occurs as a trained affectation or a hypercorrection. See JC Wells 1982, although probably revisited in more recent work. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/74 "2015-05-19T14:59:42Z")
I include all varieties of Standard English as the relevant prestige dialects in this case. And the question isn’t whether the pronunciation is common or present in any particular prestige dialect but whether it is disparaged. I would say that "aks " for “ask” is disparaged in pretty much all standard forms of English. I don’t see any evidence that the alternative pronunciations of “wh” are disparaged in any and in fact they are the primary pronunciations in a couple of them. This thread is equating uncommon, old fashioned or I don’t like it with nonstandard and that’s erroneous. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/75 "2015-05-19T15:27:08Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Which “prestige dialect” do you have in mind? The wine/whine merger is long gone in RP, and only occurs as a trained affectation or a hypercorrection. See JC Wells 1982, although probably revisited in more recent work. Some of our older broadcasters predate that by over two decades. RP was generally associated with the BBC who had the intention of making their broadcasts intelligible to all British speakers, given the relatively large differences in accents/dialects across our small islands. These days there are plenty of different accents on TV and radio and, while they often retain their ‘roots’ in terms of pronunciation the emphasis is still on clarity. I suppose this could classed as an evolution of RP, but it’s not the first thing that would come to my mind. An illustration of the diversity of UK accents is when Stanley Ellis placed “Wearside Jack” (the Yorkshire Ripper hoaxer) to [within a mile.](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/culture-obituaries/tv-radio-obituaries/6608130/Stanley-Ellis.html) (Slightly veering orf fhucking torpic…) ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/76 "2015-05-19T16:28:25Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > [Pronunciation of English ⟨wh⟩ - Wikipedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_wh) > > IME it’s usually hypercorrection or the result of idiot teachers, but\*\*\* the pronunciation does have historical precedence and is retained in a very few accents, e.g. parts of the SE USA\*\*\*. Well, that explains wHy I’m wondering what the hell the hoopla is about. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/77 "2015-05-19T16:36:31Z")
Yeah, I had no idea until I was in my 30s or so that anything thought it was actually _proper_ to vocalize “wh” as if it were just “w”. I knew some people did so, but I thought it was universally disparaged as a mispronunciation. ETA: grew up in Valdosta GA as a kid ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/78 "2015-05-19T17:40:34Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Thanks for your informative post. Where does pronouncing WH with an F come into all this? I’ve heard (though it’s not that common) “fwhat/fwhy”. 🙂 I don’t know for sure, but, if I had to guess, it’s the same change that happened to get [v] to sound the way it does. It used to be a bilabial fricative, kinda a really hard W sound or a soft B sound. Over time, it moved to where the teeth were involved. It’s also very possible that there is not F sound at all. Listen to what the [voiceless bilabial fricative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_bilabial_fricative) sounds like. (There’s a player in the sidebar.) It sounds a lot like an F, but it involves only both lips and not teeth. It also resembles a strong H sound, so it may actually be an attempt to accent the h of WH, despite my previous comments. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/79 "2015-05-19T19:40:43Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I don’t know for sure, but, if I had to guess, it’s the same change that happened to get [v] to sound the way it does. It used to be a bilabial fricative, kinda a really hard W sound or a soft B sound. Over time, it moved to where the teeth were involved. > > It’s also very possible that there is not F sound at all. Listen to what the [voiceless bilabial fricative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_bilabial_fricative) sounds like. (There’s a player in the sidebar.) It sounds a lot like an F, but it involves only both lips and not teeth. > > It also resembles a strong H sound, so it may actually be an attempt to accent the h of WH, despite my previous comments. Cockneys use an F sound, ‘fink’, ‘fing’, ‘teef’, etc. Hapropos of nuffink: An old comedic device (at least I presume it was), was a Cockney trying to sound posh, but still dropping aitches and adding them in the wrong place. On the lines of: “I 'ear 'is 'ighness is ‘eadin’ for the hadmiralty”. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/80 "2015-05-19T21:38:56Z")
I always thought that dropping the _h_ was like dropping an\* r\* or turning a vowel into a schwa. Not a change in the “standard” pronunciation, but part of the sloppiness in daily speech. But I was taught that the actual pronunciation of _wh_ was /hw/. Not “standardly” nor “archaically”–it just is. That’s why it’s spelled that way. And I normally and unconsciously pronounce it, which has seemed entirely unremarkable to me for nigh four decades. Until recently. This is pretty much the first I have heard of the “wine-whine merger” under such a name, and the first I’ve heard a prescriptivist recommendation that one _not_ pronounce the aitch (for ostensibly descriptivist [but not really] reasons, probably e\_e). Well, sort of. An acquaintance in real life was amused that I pronounced the _h_ in “white”–then he realized that an older mutual friend from the same part of the country did it too. So we both got to look at him like he was an ignoramus. It’s literally how we learned the language. There are lots of hicks in Missouri who don’t pronounce it, but insisting one isn’t supposed to sounds uneducated to me. I didn’t imagine that the toffs back in Oxbridge actually _favor_ what sounds to me like an sloppy variant form. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114.md?page=5)