# Stop enunciating the fucking "h".... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 15, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114 "2015-05-15T16:04:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Phroggge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Phroggge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phroggge)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/81 "2015-05-20T01:22:32Z")
I have said hwat, hwen, hwy and so on for some seven decades, since that was hwat I learned first at home and then in school (Bethesda and Albuquerque.) Over the years, I noticed it was less common, and the lack thereof struck me unpleasantly at first; my sons (now in their early 40’s) did not emulate that pronunciation, and indeed sometimes mocked me for it because “nobody else does it.” Sorry, kids, you’re wrong; quite a number of my contemporaries continue to do so, though I believe more commonly in the northeast than the southwest. OP has been sufficiently taken to task for his so-charming demand; I shall expatiate no further. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/82 "2015-05-20T01:37:09Z")
In the US, the _wh_ vs _w_ distinction seems most to be preserved in parts of the South. You can find a map [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_wh). I was taught the /hw/ pronunciation growing up here in Chicago (the actual sound is not exactly an /h/ followed by a /w/, but that’s the way it tends to be transcribed), but everyone ignored it. The only time I ever use the “/hw/” pronunciation is for affected emphasis. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/83 "2015-05-20T02:26:45Z")
Many people here have mentioned that they were _taught_ /hw/ as a trained affection. That is, it was not a natural part of the accent. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > That’s why it’s spelled that way. There’s a lot of stupid out there about language, often spouted by elementary school teachers as we’ve seen today, but really? Think about English pronunciation and spelling for a minute or two and get back to us on this one. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/84 "2015-05-20T02:32:51Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Many people here have mentioned that they were _taught_ /hw/ as a trained affection. That is, it was not a natural part of the accent. I don’t think so. Those of us who were taught the /hw/ pronunciation (I was one such) were not taught that it was a “trained affectation.” We were taught that it was the correct pronunciation of that digraph. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/85 "2015-05-20T04:36:34Z")
> [@Nuveena](#): > > It would always irritate my mom when Worf would pronounce weapons as wHeapons - “There’s not even an h in it!” on Star Trek: TNG. I was disappointed it didn’t come up when the Enterprise crew appeared on that one episode of Family Guy. [Eddie Izzard weighs in](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs5H7cgcpkg) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/86 "2015-05-20T05:25:22Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > These are perfectly good pronunciations and o resent their being treated in this shabby manner. As a result of this thread I’m going to emphasize the distinction between pronunciations of witch and which as strongly as I can. But that is pretty close to what would actually get you pegged as pretentious. People hear people use [ʍ] all the time and mostly don’t notice it. But, if you go around overemphasizing it, especially in a place where some do actually have the merger, it comes off as you pretentiously promoting your pronunciation as correct. Which, since you’d be doing it out of spite, wouldn’t be far from the truth. I’d just suggest going forth and speaking the way you speak and letting other people speak the way they speak. Sure, it may sound a bit old-fashioned, but, if you’re actually older, that’s not going to be the only such thing. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/87 "2015-05-20T08:30:30Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Many people here have mentioned that they were _taught_ /hw/ as a trained affection. That is, it was not a natural part of the accent. > > There’s a lot of stupid out there about language, often spouted by elementary school teachers as we’ve seen today, but really? Think about English pronunciation and spelling for a minute or two and get back to us on this one. Oh, look, we are already in the Pit, so I can _cuss you out._ You nitwit, do you think English is _natural?_ It’s all learned. I was taught it by my _mother,_ not some cartoon schoolmarm. It’s not “hyper-correction,” it is the dialect of my people. And yes, you ignoramus snob, my people are more bookish and educated than yours. You really want to engage in snobbery on behalf of people who can’t, _ever_, tell the difference between wear and where? I pronounce the _h because there’s an_ h _in it._ Teaching language involves breaking the bad habits that kids pick up, not just insisting that their babytalk and mispronunciation is natural. A certain amount of language conservatism is good; it keeps the definitions in the lexicon from drifting too fast, and the pronunciations from becoming unintelligible. People overlooked the fact that I do not pronounce the _l_ in “wolf” until high school speech class, when I was mocked for it by the other kids. I know that I pronounce “Barry” and “bury” as “berry,” and “Mary” and “marry” as “merry.” I get it, I speak a degenerate Midwestern dialect, probably corrupted when German-speakers tried to adopt English in great numbers and got the vowels wrong. Now you want to tell me I’m wrong for the bit I actually do pronounce correctly? You are a hateful, disgusting snob. You realize what you’re doing, right? You’re engaging in snobbery against people who don’t share your degenerate dialect. (And no, I didn’t call you a “degenerate.” If you had actually bothered to study English formally instead of “l’arnin’ id on da street,” maybe you’d understand that.) In the end, this is what “descriptivism” is used to justify. Prescriptivism of a very specific kind, wherein the\* nouveau\* (mis)pronunciations of the ruling class are “good” because they are sociologically high status, and educated persons from the provinces are mocked not only for what they get wrong (by historical standards) but what they get right, but _differently._ This is why I hate it when people say things like, “I’m a descriptivist,” “There is no right answer,” and, “Grammar is an archaic delusion.” Because this is what it turns into. Just a way to insist that you’re better than people because of the way you talk, even when the way you talk is, objectively, _stupid._ I understand your position far better than you think. Modern schools of linguistic thought have generated thousands of nitwits who don’t even understand the purpose of descriptivism, but just want to privilege their own adolescent patois over grammar teachers they thought were uncool. The \*h \*is pronounced because it changes the meaning. It’s OK if you don’t pronounce it all the time. It’s not OK if you don’t think it’s ever supposed to be there. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/88 "2015-05-20T08:36:06Z")
Those of us who actually understand the linguistics of English understand that there are good reasons to have less formal and more formal pronunciations, and less clear and more clear pronunciations. “Schoolmarms” got one thing right. If you teach children to pronounce different words with different pronunciations instead of collapsing them into homophones, you give them a greater ability to speak quickly and clearly with less confusion. That’s a good thing. Language is a technology, we may as well use it well. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/89 "2015-05-20T11:30:02Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I was taught it by my _mother,_ not some cartoon schoolmarm. It’s not “hyper-correction,” it is the dialect of my people. We all learn language without being taught it. Everyone does. If the pronunciation is part of your accent, then it is your accent, just as it is for many in Scotland, and you will learn it. If it was instructed, by a parent or teacher with misguided notions of propriety, centuries after it left your accent, then it’s an affectation. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > I pronounce the _h because there’s an_ h _in it._ Didn’t do that whole thinking about it for a minute thing, did you? I suppose you also pronounce the t in castle, and the voiced velar fricative in light. Knife: I pronounce the _k_ because \*there’s a \*k _in it_! > [@foolsguinea](#): > > Teaching language involves breaking the bad habits that kids pick up, not just insisting that their babytalk and mispronunciation is natural. A certain amount of language conservatism is good; it keeps the definitions in the lexicon from drifting too fast, and the pronunciations from becoming unintelligible. When a sound change has happened generations ago, how far back should we dig to put it back in for the sake of intelligibility? > [@foolsguinea](#): > > Now you want to tell me I’m wrong for the bit I actually do pronounce correctly? You are a hateful, disgusting snob. > > You realize what you’re doing, right? You’re engaging in snobbery against people who don’t share your degenerate dialect. (And no, I didn’t call you a “degenerate.” If you had actually bothered to study English formally instead of “l’arnin’ id on da street,” maybe you’d understand that.) I never said it’s wrong. I said it’s a trained affection in most cases. You’re welcome to say what you want. I use many trained affectations when I speak. Sometimes I even resurrect anachronistic pronunciations for fun and profit. The notion that it is somehow more proper or more correct is laughable. It is a fringe pronunciation. It is not a prestige pronunciation. It is not, however, an incorrect pronunciation, and I will never call it that. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > Those of us who actually understand the linguistics of English understand that there are good reasons to have less formal and more formal pronunciations, and less clear and more clear pronunciations. I for one am grateful that you are here to share your college degree in linguistics with us. Otherwise we wouldn’t know whose authority to appeal to. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/90 "2015-05-20T11:44:19Z")
[quote=“BigT, post:86, topic:720114”] I’d just suggest going forth and speaking the way you speak and letting other people speak the way they speak./QUOTE] Oh brother. Say, how about you refrain from making suggestions based in facetious comments? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/91 "2015-05-20T15:00:42Z")
My grandmother never did learn to pronounce _th_, she just used the _t_ sound instead. She spoke Dutch until it became incredibly unpoplar during World War I. I got used to it, it was always more important to understand what she was saying than how she said it. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/92 "2015-05-20T15:07:51Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > ve-Hickle (vehicle) always gets on my nerves. [Obligatory M_A_S\*H link](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCVk2tG3HU8&t=6m55s) ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/93 "2015-05-22T04:29:12Z")
Ruken, why are you being so snide about this? Those of us who maintain the wine-whine distinction aren’t generally running around trying to reverse the Great Vowel Shift, or bring back the lost preterite of “to go.” _I mean, I might do those things. For fun. But not the group of us in general._ We’re just speaking standard Modern English. And you know what? It would be objectively better if the berry-bury and Mary-merry-marry mergers were undone (in those accents that have them). And I think the same is true of the wine-whine merger. Again, language is a social and scientific technology. Making it more precise and with fewer homophones might diminish the fun of the pun–for some people who prefer perfect puns to near puns–but it probably would mostly speed up speech and improve accuracy. And you know, I don’t have a college degree in linguistics. I don’t know if I wish I did. I was too stupid to look for a college that taught it when I had the chance. I enjoy linguistics on a layman’s level. Descriptivist dogma has a lot to answer for, though. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114/94 "2015-05-22T14:31:06Z")
Pretentious? _Moi?_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-enunciating-the-fucking-h/720114.md?page=4)