# Stop Frenchifying the "J" in Indian words, dammit! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2005, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-frenchifying-the-j-in-indian-words-dammit/325040 "2005-10-06T13:18:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-frenchifying-the-j-in-indian-words-dammit/325040/41 "2005-10-06T20:54:03Z")
> [@Mishell](#): > > It’s common amongst healthcare workers. I’ve transcribed reports for doctors in Minnesota, Florida, and Pennsylvania, and amongst all of them are weirdos who pronounce it that way. It pissed me off, because when I was a fledgling transcriptionist, nobody told me about it and I spent ages one day searching for the word “sonometer” before I finally asked somebody. For “centimeter”? They’re pronouncing it “sen AH me ter”? I’ve never heard that in my life. I can only think people are analogizing from “kilometer” to “centimeter”, but normally units of distance are stressed on the penult and measuring devices are stressed on the antepenult (with kilometer as the one exception.) How in the world do people confuse that? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-frenchifying-the-j-in-indian-words-dammit/325040/42 "2005-10-06T21:15:19Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > I guess I don’t understand why we’re all expected to know how every letter is pronounced in every language. Why can’t you just politely correct me and move on? and it’s especially challenging to correctly pronounce them in a written medium. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-frenchifying-the-j-in-indian-words-dammit/325040/43 "2005-10-06T21:19:49Z")
To **Excalibre** : > [@Nithotep](#): > > I think that class of sound in English (I can’t remember what IPA calls it) gets swtiched to a “ch” or a “sh” sound when it occurs in the middle of the word. I think \*\*Nithotep \*\* is thinking about what sometimes happens to alveolar stops. Examples are easy to come up with for medial placements of orthographic “t” trending to (af)frication, such as in _nature_, _fortune_, _nation_. I suppose for “d”, one could also point out how it commonly yields to a fricative in derived forms such as _divide_ – _division_. ---
**Author:** ![Dog80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-frenchifying-the-j-in-indian-words-dammit/325040/44 "2005-10-06T21:34:33Z")
And while you’re at it, please learn to correctly pronounce Greek words like _stoichiometric_ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-frenchifying-the-j-in-indian-words-dammit/325040/45 "2005-10-06T21:46:31Z")
And while your at it could all y’all stop pronouncing American like its English. At least when we kicked the Brits out we stopped talking like them. p.s. I nominate the OP for lame pit of the year. ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-frenchifying-the-j-in-indian-words-dammit/325040/46 "2005-10-06T22:16:25Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > For “centimeter”? They’re pronouncing it “sen AH me ter”? I’ve never heard that in my life. I can only think people are analogizing from “kilometer” to “centimeter”, but normally units of distance are stressed on the penult and measuring devices are stressed on the antepenult (with kilometer as the one exception.) How in the world do people confuse that? No, they’re pronouncing it “SONtimeter”. Proper syllabic emphasis, pseudo-French pronunciation. It’s disheartening to hear that it’s a problem amongst healthcare workers nationwide. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-frenchifying-the-j-in-indian-words-dammit/325040/47 "2005-10-06T23:10:04Z")
And while we’re at it, will everyone please stop slurring the “s” in “Jesuit” and “parmesan” and the “c” in “species”? Thank you. Dale ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-frenchifying-the-j-in-indian-words-dammit/325040/48 "2005-10-07T16:14:37Z")
> [@Dr. Rieux](#): > > And while we’re at it, will everyone please stop slurring the “s” in “Jesuit” and “parmesan” and the “c” in “species”? Sorry, “spee-sheez” _is_ the correct pronunciation. (My Webster’s shows only this pronunciation; [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) gives this first and “-seez” second.) ---
**Author:** ![jali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecae2f/32.png) [@jali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jali)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-frenchifying-the-j-in-indian-words-dammit/325040/49 "2005-10-07T17:25:22Z")
Wow! All this over pronunciation of a letter! I’m from NYC and there’s a street there spelled just like the city in Texas, Houston. If you say it the conventional way, your marked as an out of towner since NY’ers say House - ton Street. So my mispronunciation of a letter is insulting? Dang - I was just trying to be friendly. I think I’ll call you Miss - oops - should that be MS. or Mrs. or citizen? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-frenchifying-the-j-in-indian-words-dammit/325040/50 "2005-10-07T17:51:16Z")
> [@jali](#): > > I think I’ll call you Miss - oops - should that be MS. or Mrs. or citizen? That’ll be _Mister_, thank you. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-frenchifying-the-j-in-indian-words-dammit/325040/51 "2005-10-07T19:02:47Z")
A contributing factor is the way that many north Indian dialects sometimes conflate “j” and “z”. Indo-Aryan languages didn’t have the voiced sibilant “z”, so when they encountered Persian or Urdu words that contained it, they sometimes used “j” instead. (Thus “Mumtaz Mahal” --\> “Taj Mahal” and so forth.) So it’s not always clear which Indian words that have a “j” in them actually need to be pronounced with a “j” (e.g., Rajiv, Jaipur, pajama) and which can acceptably be pronounced with a “z” (sometimes softened to a “zh”) instead (e.g., sabji/sabzi, gajal/ghazal). Overall, though, I like this rant. I think it should be broadened to include the annoying dolts who keep spelling “Gandhi” as “Ghandi”, too. You may consider it trivial, but if you were constantly reading references by foreigners to “Lilncon” or “Rooveselt”, that would get on your nerves after a while. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-frenchifying-the-j-in-indian-words-dammit/325040/52 "2005-10-07T19:13:10Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > A contributing factor is the way that many north Indian dialects sometimes conflate “j” and “z”. Indo-Aryan languages didn’t have the voiced sibilant “z”, so when they encountered Persian or Urdu words that contained it, they sometimes used “j” instead. (Thus “Mumtaz Mahal” → “Taj Mahal” and so forth.) While it is true that this characteristic exists in some regional dialects, I do not accept that this is a factor that has any influence whatsoever on Americans (apparently, who have never heard these words pronounced) who are pronouncing them. > [@](#): > > So it’s not always clear which Indian words that have a “j” in them actually need to be pronounced with a “j” (e.g., Rajiv, Jaipur, pajama) and which can acceptably be pronounced with a “z” This can be an influence only on those who have some personal familiarity with regional speech in India and, most probably, who have actually been to India. Generally, it is very clear, because in standard Hindi, the spelling ambiguities have been cleared up (there is now a separate letter for “Z”). And of the words you have listed, only the clearly “J” words are words that American news broadcasters are likely to pronounce. Anyone who has to use words like _sabzi_ or _ghazal_ is likely to have learned something about what these words mean and how they are to be pronounced. And they’re not going to be spelling them with _J_s. > [@](#): > > (sometimes softened to a “zh”) instead (e.g., sabji/sabzi, gajal/ghazal).p I have never heard these sounds “softened” as you say to a “zh.” So far as I know, the “zh” sound is completely non-existant in any standard form of an Indian language and, I suspect, rare if not non-existant in any regional dialect. > [@](#): > > Overall, though, I like this rant. I think it should be broadened to include the annoying dolts who keep spelling “Gandhi” as “Ghandi”, too. I agree wholeheartedly. ---
**Author:** ![jali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecae2f/32.png) [@jali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jali)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-frenchifying-the-j-in-indian-words-dammit/325040/53 "2005-10-07T21:19:53Z")
Sorry Mistah (that’s how we NY’ers pronounce the word you wrote) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-frenchifying-the-j-in-indian-words-dammit/325040/54 "2005-10-07T21:33:24Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > And stop Jewishisizing words as well: > > _Tuchas_ is _too-hass_, not too-kus. > > What?.. ;j actually - it’s somewhere in between, but certainly shy of coughing up phlegm ;j ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-frenchifying-the-j-in-indian-words-dammit/325040/55 "2005-10-07T21:36:08Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I’m not talking about situations in which you might not know that a particular name is Indian. I’m talking about situations in which the speaker knows very well that he is saying an Indian word, whether in the workplace or – my personal pet peeve – on the news. It happens far too often. (Not only with Indian words, but with words in other languages, like “Beijing”) > > And why, when confronted with an unfamiliar word, wouldn’t you just default to the standard English pronunciation of “J” instead of the French pronunciation? “If it’s foreign it must be French.” is the thinking here. And that’s worse than just not knowing. and while we’re on the subject its NU-CLEE-ER - not NUKE-YOU-LER supposedly educated people have been mispronouncing it for decades! it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2005, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-frenchifying-the-j-in-indian-words-dammit/325040/56 "2005-10-08T10:31:53Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I have never heard these sounds “softened” as you say to a “zh.” So far as I know, the “zh” sound is completely non-existant in any standard form of an Indian language and, I suspect, rare if not non-existant in any regional dialect. Well, when I lived in Jaipur I heard quite a few native Hindi speakers pronounce, say, “sabzi” that way, with a sound that almost seemed like a cross between a “j” and a “z”, as if they knew that the consonant was originally supposed to be “z” but they were more comfortable pronouncing the “j”. I make no claims whatsoever for this being a regular linguistic feature of any Indian dialect. However, I’m not as convinced as you are that, say, American broadcasters could never possibly have heard an Indian native speaker using such a softened “j” sound and mistakenly got the idea that it was the correct way to pronounce the Hindi “j” in general. I agree it may not be very likely, but I don’t think it’s impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Phedre\_no\_Delaunay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/839c29/32.png) [@Phedre\_no\_Delaunay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phedre_no_Delaunay)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-frenchifying-the-j-in-indian-words-dammit/325040/57 "2005-10-09T19:06:11Z")
While we’re on the subject of pronunciation, I’d just like to point out that the word is spelled P R O N U N C I A T I O N, not P R O N O U N C I A T I O N. Thank you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-frenchifying-the-j-in-indian-words-dammit/325040.md?page=2)