No, that one wasn’t directed at you in specific, Nzinga, because I know that’s not something you advocate for. But it’s the kind of attitude that leads to these sort of vehement attacks against anyone who even smacks of giving the antivaxers and their ilk even a second of consideration. I just kind of glossed over that middle part that made it relevant to the discussion. 
I guess my point was that people who have legitimate questions end up as sort of collateral damage.
I completely understand that, Guns. I understand anyone who fights anti-vaxxers with both guns. I’m all about that. My only beef was that yoyodyne sounded like he (she? sorry) was mocking someone for attempting research.
I think yoyodyne’s complaint against **WhyNot **was not for *asking *questions but for considering their personal layman’s opinion, informed by Google versus entirely credible sources, equally valid as the opinion of someone with a truly informed scientific/medical opinion.
Oh. I see. I don’t know what kind of research WhyNot has done. So I will fall back and let her speak for herself.
“Not good enough,” mainly. Some of WhyNot’s reasons for why she (?) was making certain choices not to vaccinate were refuted by other people in this very thread. I think a lot of the backlash came from her post being pretty much an “I figured out on my own what and when to vaccinate my kids for”… which then turned out to demonstrate several mistaken conclusions. She was, to some extent, a much milder version of an antivaxxer–someone with limited information and understanding coming across some shit on the internet without the background to properly understand it, but deciding that that then gave her enough information to make an informed decision against the advice of her doctor. If she’d come from a position of *asking questions *versus making (mistaken) assertions, I think she would have been treated a lot less harshly. (And even at that, she wasn’t beat over the head–people just pointed out where she was wrong or where her methodology was bad.)
**WhyNot **stopped checking the thread weeks ago when it died! Sorry, folks.
To whomever asked above, I’m a nursing student, but my training about vaccines in school has been pretty much nonexistent. They tell us nothing other than the schedule, which means that your nurse probably doesn’t know any more about vaccines than you do. We did learn about the general action of vaccines in Microbiology, but nothing about specific vaccines routinely administered, other than what they are called and what they prevent. No mention, ever, of even the slightest risks due to allergic reactions to ingredients, much less anything more controversial. We are taught, however, that natural immunity to any bacteria or virus provides longer lasting and stronger immunity than any vaccine or immunization. There’s nothing at all controversial about that statement.
Before this, I worked for an acupuncturist/body-worker/herbalist for 7 years while studying Traditional Chinese Medicine and (Western) Herbalism, with a core component of Western Biochemistry, Anatomy and Phys, Nutrition and Pathology, all approved as college level courses. In that time, I was also a member of a social group of, well, hippies, as well as interacting with a ton of alt-medicine fans who came in the office and also took classes. I heard every anti-vaccine argument there is during that time. And during those discussions, I was generally the most reluctant to jump on the vaccine bashing bandwagon. I simply couldn’t reconcile what I knew of immune system function with the horror stories surrounding vaccines from these folks. And I’m just not one for conspiracy theories, which is really what it all sounded like.
One of my best resources trying to sort this all out and make my own decisions was a book entitled* Vaccinations: A Thoughtful Parent’s Guide: How to Make Safe, Sensible Decisions about the Risks, Benefits, and Alternatives *by Aviva Jill-Romm, who at the time of publishing was a Nurse Practitioner and herbalist, but has since gone on to get her MD. Aviva is a fantastic practitioner and researcher, and a person I respect very much for her ability to use both western and “woo” in appropriate balance. The thing I found most interesting in this particular book was her look through old medical records and the hypothesis that a lot of the “elimination” of vaccine preventable illness wasn’t a direct result of vaccination efforts, but the natural life cycle of the bacteria/viruses or other human efforts, generally around sanitation. I find that just fascinating, especially when one notes that the diseases she predicted, using statistical models and historical data, would reemerge in the last few years actually have so emerged, right on schedule, vaccination be damned.
Again, Aviva is not an “anti-vaxxer”, she’s an avid scientist, who isn’t content to let either side have the last say without question, but does research into historical trends, treatments, morbidity and mortalities of both the diseases and the vaccines. She never, not once, in her book or in when I’ve talked with her in person, says that any parent should reject vaccines in toto, or even a specific vaccine. She does say that, rather than lumping all vaccines and children into one category, each one should be considered for risks and benefits to each patient’s body, same as with any other prescription medication.
With the information in this book, my child’s pediatrician and I looked at her health history, weighted the risks and benefits of her getting each illness vs. the risks and benefits of getting each vaccine, and together we made a plan of care. Some vaccines we chose to administer right away, some to delay for a few weeks or months and some for a few years. I realize that this is more work than most doctors and parents are willing to do, and the current guidelines are a quick and easy solution to that, but I’m forever grateful that I found a doctor willing to consider my daughter as an individual patient, not a statistic.
The problem for some of us that seemingly rational and intelligent people can make all kinds of stupid statements on vaccines.
For example the whole don’t give them too many at once argument. Well vaccines are a kind of antigen. Guess what? Your baby gets exposed to antigens all day long.
Then there’s the whole green our vaccines movement.
Looks okay on the surface, right? Yet it again makes no sense. By that they mean take the stuff that looks icky out. Well all that icky stuff – the formaldehyde and the sucrose is really in such minute quantities you can barely measure it at all. Oh and you have these things called kidneys and a liver. They get rid of the icky stuff, some of which you need to function properly. So the whole green our vaccines is just another way for Jenny McCarthy and her idiot followers to pretend they’re not really anti-vaccine but pro vaccine safety.
There’s just about no evidence for so many of their claims. Spacing them out doesn’t reduce vaccine reactions. It just leaves babies unprotected for a longer period.
It just sort of becomes the same silly arguements from people who’ve read crap like Mothering Magazine and almost willfully confuse disinformation for real science. On one level one can exuse ignorance on this topic from some poorly educated parents. But to hear it out of the mouths of upper middle class highly educated women who really ought to know better makes you want to smack them hard for being so deliberately obtuse.
At some point you don’t look like a rational skeptic. You simply look like a deliberate, upper class, clueless smug twit.
Then there’s kind of deliberate assholism by some people in the medical profession who really should know better.
Here’s Dr. Jay Gordon attacking Dr. Paul Offit (a hero if there ever was one!), defending Jenny McCarthy’s birdbrained mutterings and downplaying a serious illness like pertussis in young babies.
It’s the same crap over and over and over and over again. It isn’t even modern crap. As long as you’ve had vaccines you’ve had the same fear mongering morons who pretend that vaccines are kiss of death and vaccine preventable illnesses good for the body.
GAH.
I’m sorry WhyNot but the truth is that on this subject most of us are statistics. The truth is that we’re not precious little snowflakes. We’re pretty much all the same. Vaccine schedules were devised by informed doctors as the best way to get most kids protected as early as possible. There’s no good reason to deviate from them unless your ped tells you otherwise. Sanitation did not get rid of hib or reduce measles rates or rid the world of smallpox. Vaccination did. If those diseases are coming back in certain parts of the western world well the anti-vaxxers have only themselves to blame.
My ped’s from India, btw. If you think I feel strongly on this issue well you should talk to her. She’s seen the effects of non-vaccination very close up.
FYI, here’s some studies to back up what I’ve stated:
Not only does delaying does NOT reduce vaccine side effects but children who were vaccinated on schedule were healthier:
Anti-vaxxers have sparked epidemics worldwide and here at home:
It’s just the sort of oh look how smart I am I’ve done my homework on vaccines I’m not one of sheeple attitude that I find smugly irritating as hell. Ask all the questions you want but be prepared to admit that the answers given by the Jenny McCarthys of the world are completely and utterly wrong.
I wish I had gotten the hepatitis B vaccine as an infant. Not because I got the disease or anything, but because getting the vaccine was not a pleasant experience, and if I’d gotten it as an infant I wouldn’t remember it. When I have kids, I will get them as many of the necessary vaccines as possible before age three, so they won’t remember getting them when they’re older.
Lavender this seems like an issue that you have a lot of really strong feelings about, and for the most part you seem to repeat those same strong feelings over and over and over in this and every other anti vax thread that you start every few months or so.
I think everyone gets your point, and I don’t think the dope is teeming with antivax nut jobs that you can convert and thereby save the planet…so…what’s the deal?
Is there some specific reason you’ve taken this on as your cause? At this point I’d be more interested in hearing about that than more of the same angry spewing you’ve been doing so far.
I’d like to think that I’ve done more than simply rant. I’ve backed up my assertions in great detail. This issue does come up a lot for me because a) I like to read the parenting message boards and the antis are ALL over them like them like a plague and b) I have a neighbor who while smart (she’s getting a master’s degree in chem so she can teach high school kids) makes anti-vaccine rants at least once a month at the bus stop. She’s convinced a nephew of hers is autistic from vaccines.
So I rant here instead of at her. Once in a while I like to convince myself that most people and parents aren’t crazy.
Ah, so kind of a safe place to bang your head so you don’t lose your manners in public? That makes sense.
I was a little worried that you were just kind of crazy in another way.
My daughter is not a precious little snowflake to anyone but her family, yes. But she is a person, with a specific medical history, and personal care trumps blanket recommendations any day. Blanket recommendations are good, for they help guide doctors and parents. But they were not devised for micropreemies, or people with a history of neonatal respiratory distress, or any one of a number of other reasons why, given an active, therapeutic regimen compliant parent ready to bring her back as many times as need be, an individualized treatment plan was a good idea for us.
Yeah. This is smartest place I know. More importantly the sanest. Once in while I feel the need to surround myself with that pleasant sense that most people aren’t nuts and will agree with me on this subject.
She’s a nice person and a great parent but I can’t believe one of my neighbors is one of the antis. I’m still so baffled by it. Especially when the other parents just stand there and nod their heads at her. I am co-writing a book on this subject from the POV of the ordinary parent who just wants someone to sit them down and walk them through why the crazy is crazy.
So I probably am just a bit crazy on this subject but I’d to think it in service of a very good cause.
WhyNot,
I am very glad that Caleigh is doing well. I remember her birth story and I am truly pleased she’s had a happy ending. But most babies aren’t micropremies. They are better off vaccinated on the schedule recommended by peds.
I just want to be clear on something: I’m not an anti-vax moron, so I can go on murdering babies, right?
The moral position is to eat what you kill and don’t just do it for sport.
Being passionate about counteracting dangerous crazy is not crazy. And we have had antivaxers posting tripe on the Dope (most recently a libertarian Ron Paul supporter spouting the antivax party line in Great Debates). At least one antivaxer is still an active poster, though quiet on this particular subject for awhile. I appreciate lavenderblue’s commitment on this issue and her providing updates on what’s happening in this manufactroversy.
Antivaxers who go on about “toxins” in vaccines often point to official-sounding lists of “toxins” they say are in vaccines (my personal favorite is sodium chloride, OMIGOD (i.e. table salt, or the same thing used commonly in intravenous solutions). Curiously, I’ve never seen documentation of exactly where these lists come from - and in one such case recently it turned out that the SCARY CHEMICALS were actually from the recipe for growth medium used to grow the organisms eventually used in production of a vaccine - not the vaccine itself. lavenderblue’s point about minute quantities of a substance not being equivalent to a toxin is correct. Also true is that antivaxers mischaracterize the nature of these substances, or ignore the fact that they’re naturally present in the human body (for instance, formaldehyde, which is routinely produced as part of normal metabolic processes and disposed of by the body in the same way that any microtraces of formaldehyde left in vaccines would be).
Right, that was my point. I think we’re all a little crazy about some topic that other people don’t fret about, and I was curious about why this was hers. I thought maybe she was a wackadoo, but she very clearly outlined her reasons for the passion she feels about this topic, and why this feels like a safe place to vent.
Now, at the risk of a hijack (although maybe this thread has been played out anyway) what issue gets you really interested and passionate?
For me it’s probably parenting, bad parenting makes me crazy and I want to stop the morons on the street and make them pay…but I don’t because it doesn’t pay off in any real way. Get me started in a dope thread though…
Someone who knows what he’s talking about says you’re completely wrong. In summary, the drug companies (Big Pharma!) do a lot of the ‘heavy lifting’ research to see if the whiz-bang new stuff the academic labs turn out is actually any good; without that, there’s no way of knowing which of the big heavily-promoted breakthroughs are actually worth a damn thing.
Ah, but sometimes the recommendations from different doctors are different, so what then? I had every vaccine out the Spanish government required when I was growing up, I’ve had a couple of tetanus shots, and when I got a job transfer to the US which might involve visits to several locations in Latin America, I went to my doctor to see whether I should get any specific vaccinations. There were some for Mexico and Brazil, but not for the specific areas I might be visiting, so I didn’t get any. This was based on WHO recommendations.
But when I got sent to Latin America from the US, not only was I told I had to have three vaccinations Or Else, the nurse wanted me to sign up the paperwork without reading it (no way, that thing is basically a contract where the patient says “ok, I’ve received this warning and accept the risks involved in the treatment - I will not sue this pussy bitch if I get joint pain or fever”); the possible secondary symptoms for all three vaccinations were the same; I got them all on the same day; I did develop said symptoms (there wasn’t any comfortable position, and my feet/ankles/hands/wrists were the worst) and the nurse claimed that there was No Way they might have been caused by the vaccines which, according to my doctor and WHO, I did not need.
I’m all for vaccines, but only because something exists doesn’t mean you have to use it.
PS: I would like to apologize to female dogs. I’ve been looking for an equivalent term which doesn’t insult any animals for a while and will accept suggestions.