# Stop or I'll, um, gee... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 16, 2001, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-or-ill-um-gee/50397 "2001-01-16T22:25:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2001, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-or-ill-um-gee/50397/41 "2001-01-18T11:04:17Z")
I just hope all the stuff in this thread is some kind of insane fad that will soon die out. **Max Torque’s** URL about a school that a zero tolerance police of “no fighting, even in self-defense” just made me mad. What is such a policy teaching kids? That they cannot defend themselves, even when teachers aren’t around to do it. I think this kind of policy only _contributes_ tp the desperation some kids feel. I can’t possibly see how it helps anything. The odd thing is, when I was in high school (early 90’s) I knew a kid who brought a switchblade to school with him. It wasn’t like it wasn’t a big deal-everyone (including him) knew he would get into trouble if he were caught with it. But nobody thought owning it alone made him a dangerous or violent. In fact, a lot of guys carried pocket knives. Of course, if that happened now, they’d probably be expelled. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Persephone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Persephone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Persephone)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-or-ill-um-gee/50397/42 "2001-01-19T02:12:11Z")
[http://fl.mlive.com/news/index.ssf?/news/stories/20010118f18a1schoo.frm](http://fl.mlive.com/news/index.ssf?/news/stories/20010118f18a1schoo.frm) A real gun, in a real elementary school, here again. No one was hurt, thank Goddess. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-or-ill-um-gee/50397/43 "2001-01-19T02:36:29Z")
I attended three different high schools in Dallas, Texas, back during the 1950s. My parents couldn’t decide where they wanted to live, but that’s another story. Each of the three schools had a gun club for students and two of them had indoor rifle ranges. Weapons training was provided by volunteer members of the NRA, assisted by the assigned ROTC advisor. At two of those schools, fist fights on campus would be broken up and the two fighters would be taken to the gym, issued boxing gloves and “may the best man win” in a fair fight refereed by the football coach. I guess we would all go to prison for life in today’s environment. ---
**Author:** ![Bhudda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/57b2e6/32.png) [@Bhudda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bhudda)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-or-ill-um-gee/50397/44 "2001-01-19T19:46:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Persephone \* > \*\*[http://fl.mlive.com/news/index.ssf?/news/stories/20010118f18a1schoo.frm](http://fl.mlive.com/news/index.ssf?/news/stories/20010118f18a1schoo.frm) > > A real gun, in a real elementary school, here again. No one was hurt, thank Goddess. \*\* Using the provided example and following the topic discussion - Why blame a school. Did a teacher or school admin give the kid the gun? Did he get it via the black market or from other criminal source? Put the blame where it is due, the dumbass parent who left the gun out for the kid to get. Why should the parent not be responsible, legally and financially? If I were to be as irresponsible with a weapon as what the parents of the child in the provided story link seem to be, I would wish someone would take my daughter away from me. Bhudda ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-or-ill-um-gee/50397/45 "2001-02-01T21:37:13Z")
And the lunacy continues: [Boy Suspended for Pointing Chicken](http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010131/us/chicken_finger_gun_1.html) > [@](#): > > An 8-year-old boy was suspended from school for 3 days after pointing a breaded chicken finger at a teacher and saying, ``Pow, pow, pow.’’ ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-or-ill-um-gee/50397/46 "2001-02-01T22:52:32Z")
At least, I was back in the neolithic when I attended school. In those days (at least in the schools I attended) guns were extremely rare. I did, however, regularly attend classes carrying one or more knives of various length. (Well – I didn’t regularly attend, but when I bothered to atend I was regularly armed.) From all indicatins, the situation has grown worse in the last couple of decades. Now, I am in no way attempting to defend the specifics of these absurd policies. However, I understand the feeling on teh part of administrators that they need to draw a clear line, and that if they err in the placement of that line it should be on the side of too much caution rather than insufficient diligence. I have no problems with a school establishing and following clear guidelines, so long as those guidelines are communicated and emphasized to both students and parents. I see no reason to suspend a kid for advertising a bad rock band through his sartorial decisions, but I also see no reason why said desire to advertise should override a school dress code. There is nothing cruel or destructive about setting arbitrary limits on the fashion choices available to students. I doubt even the ACLU is willing to sue for a student’s right to accessorize with gun replicas. Publish the rules. Enforce the rules. If that is the biggest complaint the students (and their parents) have, then I imagine the teachers and administrators sleep quite well. On another note: > [@](#): > > fist fights on campus would be broken up and the two fighters would be taken to the gym, issued boxing gloves and “may the best man win” in a fair fight refereed by the football coach. If my son were assaulted at school, and the teacher’s response was to put gloves on the boy and set him up for further physical abuse you bet your ass I would be upset. If my son assaulted a weaker student, and the teacher’s response was to put gloves on the boys and encourage the violence to continue you can bet your other ass I would be upset. Some changes are for the better. ---
**Author:** ![DaveX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/96bed5/32.png) [@DaveX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaveX)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-or-ill-um-gee/50397/47 "2001-02-01T23:28:39Z")
The only thing we should have zero tolerance for is zero tolerance. ---
**Author:** ![Homer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df788c/32.png) [@Homer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homer)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2001, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-or-ill-um-gee/50397/48 "2001-02-02T06:19:05Z")
> [@](#): > > “Without knowing all the details, it sounds like Mike’s obviously a trend setter with impeccable taste in clothes,” said Pepsi spokesperson Brad Shaw. “We’re going to make sure he’s got plenty of Pepsi shirts to wear in the future once we track him down.” **BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA** Good God that’s funny. –Tim ---
**Author:** ![Lux\_Fiat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bc79bd/32.png) [@Lux\_Fiat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lux_Fiat)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2001, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-or-ill-um-gee/50397/49 "2001-02-02T09:55:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*Re the OP: > > No one here has mentioned why things got so out of whack. Guns. > > Just observing that the society seems to be contorting itself more and more radically to accommodate the right to bear arms. Indoctrinating the schools and the kids with an almost siege mentality to protect themselves from the possible implications of that right (and it’s trickle down effect: Fear) is a curious notion for an outsider.\*\* Oh, I don’t know. I’d say the problem isn’t so much the guns themselves as it is that siege mentality. It makes guns totems, objects of mystery and fear. There is little more attractive to a schoolkid than an object of mystery and fear. We know that children crave attention. We know that a lot of children can’t distinguish between good attention and bad attention. It follows that the siege mentality you describe (which I also see) guarantees that kids are going to bring guns to school, because they want the other kids to extend to _them_ that horrible power they associate with the gun. Because of that siege mentality, children have been indoctrinated with fear and ignorance, and no respect to balance it. If guns are regarded as just another tool, kids can be taught to respect them, and what fear they have of them will be a healthy fear born of knowledge, rather than the entirely unproductive fear of the unknown. Problems are rarely inherent in things. Problems arise from the ways we use the things. Familiarity and respect trump fear and ignorance every time as bases from which to construct our conception of a thing’s utility. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2001, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-or-ill-um-gee/50397/50 "2001-02-04T00:50:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Max Torque \* > \*\*And the lunacy continues: [Boy Suspended for Pointing Chicken](http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010131/us/chicken_finger_gun_1.html) > > > [@](#): > > > > An 8-year-old boy was suspended from school for 3 days after pointing a breaded chicken finger at a teacher and saying, ``Pow, pow, pow.’’ > > \*\* Goddamned teacher never should have cried fowl. 😃 😃 😃 Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![Juniper200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@Juniper200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Juniper200)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2001, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-or-ill-um-gee/50397/51 "2001-02-04T00:52:42Z")
As much as I respect you, **Cartooniverse** , I will have to kill you now. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2001, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-or-ill-um-gee/50397/52 "2001-02-05T01:32:01Z")
I dunno **matt\_mcl** : [Canadian school district defends controversial expulsion](http://www.cnn.com/2001/fyi/teachers.ednews/01/31/school.censor.reut/index.html) Although arguablyy not quite as stupid as the Chicken Finger of Death. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2001, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-or-ill-um-gee/50397/53 "2001-02-05T02:22:29Z")
I remember going to Brooklyn Tech HS, in which we have to use more tools than the A-Team would use every week, and that is just for machine shop and technical drawing classes. My goodness, murder plots were written involving the use of a lathe!! Yet we have no incidents related to the use of these items, including the very dangerous (in my opinion) and ubiquitous T-square. It is a self-control problem today, on the part of the administrators who want to do something about the problem of youth. Yet they have not tried to solve the problem of cruel teasing, assaults adn what not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-or-ill-um-gee/50397.md?page=2)