Why would it enter the court system?
What standing would Republicans have to bring suit?
The debate was a disaster for Biden. The whole point of a debate this early was to reassure voters about Biden’s mental state. He had one thing he could not do: look confused and incoherent. He failed.
Ok, he had a bad cold, hoarse throat, breathing through his mouth. Maybe that explains him standing there with his mouth hanging open looking like every word out of Trump’s mouth was a shock!
And being doped to the gills helps explain his moments of incoherence. Bad colds and thick meds can do that.
But the narrative surrounding Biden is about age causing declininig mental acuity, and this debate feed that narrative to a tee.
On fact, his subsequent rallies have been a total about face. It’s a shame that guy wasn’t on the debate stage.
Now I’m voting D. I’d vote for ChatGPT for Pres over Trump, and probably any Republican.
The way I look at it, I’m voting for the D party and for democracy over authoritarianism, and I’m voting for the Biden-Harris ticket. And if that means Biden steps down on Jan 21 2025, I wouldn’t bat an eye.
But I suspect he was just suffering from a bad cold and is mentally capable. I just am apalled at what happened in that stage.
As for Trump, he didn’t seem perceptably different from how he’s always been (caveat, I didn’t see the last half of the debate). To expect anyone to shift their opinion of him based on that debate is nonsense.
But Biden’s performance could change opinion. Not shift them to Trump, but discourage participation, or encourage protest votes in places that can’t afford them. That’s my fear.
And I don’t see Biden stepping down prior to the election. The conventional wisdom is that the incumbent Pres has an edge in the election unless he’s been a total disaster, which Biden has not. That edge doesn’t typically transfer to the party candidate, even the VP.
And any attempt to have him step aside now will prompt questions about his competency as Pres now, not just in the next term. So there won’t be a move to shift at the Convention.
The best outcome is to continue to stress the big issues and demonstrate the debate was a fluke from a cold. And pray all the dem supporters who are dissatisfied with Biden hold together against the alternative - Trump. Because Kennedy or Stein won’t be elected, but could absolutely keep Joe from getting reelected. And that’s what we have to fight.
That is not true. Anyone who saw his State of the Union speech already knew that Bidens mental state was sharp as a tack. The idea was to watch trump have issues- which he did, but was overshadowed by Bidens poor performance.
That is not magical thinking, that is 100% correct.
Now if Biden hadnt right afterwards wounded sharp and in control, then there would be an issue. But he did- and so there is no issue.
We covered this earlier in the thread but you guys can’t seriously be this naive, can you? You think a bunch of democratic candidates are going to come out and buck any party unity to say “Joe Biden is incompetent! You can’t vote for him! I’m going to try to invalidate the primary system and ask for all the delegates at the convention to support me in contradiction of the rules of the party so you can vote for me instead!”
That would actually do the destruction of any democratic campaign the way some of you are claiming switching candidates would do. It sows discord, makes the democrats look incompetent, fractures support, gives a sense that the rules aren’t being followed, makes the replacement candidate look selfish and impulsive. Even a party as bad at politics as the Democrats can see that’s obviously not going to work.
Any plans to replace Biden are going to happen in quiet, behind closed doors, in a way that allows him to accept it and save face. He’ll make up some health excuse to retire from the campaign and endorse someone else to take over. If there are democrats having doubts and trying to change things, we won’t hear about it until this happens.
I too am frustrated by people here who somehow act like the rational, informed conclusion is how things should be, and therefore just repeating why it’s the right thing is going to lead to the best outcome. No. “Should” doesn’t work in American politics. Hillary Clinton should’ve won the election by a 99.5/0.5 margin. Obviously that didn’t happen, and your assertion that something is going to happen because it’s the right thing and people should choose it is obviously flawed. I see so much of the same logic in this thread. Oh the public should excuse Biden because of this or that, or recognize that Trump is worse because of this or that, and while that’s true, just because it should be that way doesn’t make it happen. We need to focus on what voters will actually do, not what intellectually/rationally/morally they should be doing.
What the voters will actually do, is what voters have always done: ignore debates entirely.
But then … there’s this [bolding mine]:
There’s no less Magical Thinking in the “replace Biden” crowd:
How do we replace him?
Who do we replace him with?
What is the guarantee, or indeed even a shred of evidence, that the replacement will be better, and that the chaos created by changing horses (or trying to change horses, or even more likely trying and failing to change horses) this late in the race will improve the Democratic chances?
Thinking that any of those questions can be answered quickly, smoothly, or efficiently is Magical Thinking at best.
There was nothing positive to Biden accruing from the debate. I think you’d be smoking crack, but at best one could call the debate neutral.
The negatives are that
- at a minimum concerns on Bidens age/mental acuity have increased
- Completely missed an opportunity to “fact check” and bitch slap Trump down to where he belongs.
There is no do over. I’ll take big bets that Trump doesn’t do another debate this year. After “vanquishing” Joe, there is zero upside for another debate. “Look, it was embarrassing the first time I debated Joe, I don’t want to humiliate a senile old man a second time.”
And whether it is Kamala, Newsome, or any of the next gen dems, they will eviscerate Trump on stage. Like Biden should have done. And Trump’s reptilian brain will do the math, and decide potential to win a second debate might go south and lose his shot at the presidency.
No comparison.
Unopposed, from the free-throw line, I can make a basket as frequently as some NBA players, That’s the State of the Union.
But one on one, with even the weakest professional, I could never, ever make a basket. That the debate.
I would turn this question back on you, what evidence is there that Biden will be better than a younger replacement that can
- flip the age/senility onto Trump
- fact check and bitch slap Trump in the next debate, if there is one
- Lessen or avoid the Israel/Palestine backlash where no one is happy
- Take away the Republican convention personal smear takedown of Biden. Sure, they will go after whoever replaces Joe, but it will be sloppy amateur hour where it’s clear there are no policies or plans beyond “I have great healthcare/economy/traffifs/world peace” etc.
Here’s one shred of evidence:
President Biden, be like LBJ, whose choice to bow out was hugely popular
Does that have anything to do with Kamala Harris? I think so. Her approval is linked to that of her administration. If Joe put the country above his personal ambition, he would be admired for it, making the Biden administration the admired adult in the room.
It also would highlight, like nothing else, that being elderly makes it hard to do the presidential job well. Today, if a pollster asks about Trump vs. Harris, a lot of voters will first think of something they long ago heard her say and didn’t quite like. If Biden drops out because of age, some of the same voters, when confronted with the Trump vs. Harris choice, will first think – Trump is also too old.
Guarantees? Of course not. But this race needs to be shaken up. Another Trump-Biden debate, where Biden does marginally better, and/or Trump marginally worse, will not shake it up. Biden dropping out would be the reset.
What evidence is there that
- This person exists
- Reopening the primary six weeks before the convention wouldn’t throw the entire party into civil war leaving the eventual nominee mortally wounded before they even accept the nomination
- Trump/MAGA wouldn’t just instantly turn their smear machine on them the same way they have with Biden, which has apparently been effective enough that even Democrats believe it now
YouGov/CBS poll, June 28-29;
Should Biden stay in the race? 55% Yes / 45% No
Should Trump stay in the race? 46% Yes / 54% No
The evidence is that Biden is the incumbent, he beat Trump before, and the primaries are already done, among many things. Might as well ask what’s the evidence that Biden is a better candidate than an imaginary purple unicorn.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Changing candidates this late would be an extraordinary move, politically speaking. If you want to convince someone this extraordinary move is the best one, you need extraordinary evidence.
A wild guess. I’d prefer to stay the course rather than abandon everything and scramble because of one bad debate.
Good to see use of polling data.
According to the same poll, 72 percent of registered voters say that Biden does not have the “mental & cognitive health to serve as president,” while only 49 percent say that about Trump.
P.S. For the record, I am with both the 72 percent and the 49 percent. Biden is slowing down cognitively, while Trump has some sort of personality disorder.
You’ll note that question was asked of “registered voters”, which includes Republicans predisposed to say he’s unfit regardless of the facts. The majority of Democrats want him to stay in the race, and if you asked that 45% who they’ll vote for when Biden and Trump are the two names on the ballot, they’re going to stick with Biden.
Would you fucking stop it?
We saw it with our own eyes. We weren’t tricked by republican propaganda. You are the one who is acting irrationally by pretending a genuinely concerning performance from an 81 year old is all just 100% absolutely to blame on the cold medicine and cannot possibly be anything else, and that anyone who could possibly come to a different conclusion must be brainwashed by propaganda.
Republicans have been lying about the “sleepy Joe” shit for 5 years. It was obvious that it was not true so I never believed it. Then I saw his performance, and I start to wonder if he is indeed seeing decline based on age. It makes sense - it’s entirely plausible to happen to any 81 year old living a low stress life, let alone a guy who just had the hardest job in the world for 4 years.
How weird that after seeing Biden’s behavior with my own eyes, suddenly and coincidentally all the republican propaganda brainwashed me when it didn’t before. How weird. I mean, there couldn’t have possibly been an original thought in my own head. The only reason anyone could hesitate to want a frail old man to be their president is because they fell for propaganda.
You think you’re somehow helping Biden’s cause by insulting everyone who is concerned about him, but you’re not. Being on the same side as people like you is alienating. I have to overcome the aversion to people like you to continue to vote Biden. You’re not doing any good.
Holy shit, you don’t find the fact that 45% of Democrats-- 10% more than February-- think Biden should step aside, a mere four months before the election, to be fucking alarming as hell? That number should be in the low single digits.
This is alarming as hell!
So…these Democrats are going to vote DJT? Or they are going to sit things out?
I. Don’t. Think. So.