Stop Panicking!

I assumed that they did mean “why did Biden do this in the first debate?” but I wasn’t sure. He did, at least once, if not multiple times, precede his response with something like “everything he just said is a lie”. Which is not different content-wise from saying “There you go again making shit up, Donald.”

Cheating and immoral behavior need to be defined.

These concepts are operate on a continuum where some are more acceptable than others.

We need to win and not compromise our values but there’s room to maneuver.

Ah, OK. But I’m talking about him opening with a statement like that and starting every response with something similar. Get Trump on the defensive and watch him melt down.

One of many things of which to never lose sight:

Politicians lie. Period.

What they do NOT do is attempt to overthrow the legitimately elected US government.

That’s unique to Donald Trump.

Or, get Trump on the defensive and watch spout off every QAnon conspiracy even tangentially involving Biden.
If you want the accusation that Biden molested his daughter to be the story of the day instead of a marginally know bit of defamatory bullshit then it’s certainly a plan.

I don’t think we’re going to agree on this.

Nope. Good thing we’re just a couple of nobodies on a message board!

I don’t think Biden is up to that game. Trump is a bully and has much better skills at slinging mud than Biden. Biden and his team could probably come up with some good opening lines ahead of time, but Trump is going to be inherently better at thinking up insults in the moment and slinging insults back at Biden. And not to mention, I’m not sure Biden is going to be all that great at thinking on his feet to come up sick burns given his current condition.

Did anyone watch the debate to the end? Judging from how many people posted in the live-watch thread that they tuned out early, not so many. Because Biden’s last answer before closing statements was:

BIDEN: Let’s see. You’re a whiner. When you lost the first time, you continued to appeal and appeal to courts all across the country.

Not one single court in America said any of your claims had any merit, state or local, none.

But you continue to promote this lie about somehow there’s all this misrepresentation, all the stealing. There’s no evidence of that at all.

And I tell you what? I doubt whether you’ll accept it because you’re such a whiner. The idea if you lose again, you’re accepting anything, you can’t stand the loss. Something snapped in you when you lost the last time.

Before that, when Trump trotted out his favorite lie, migrants as crime wave, Biden started his response with:

BIDEN: Every single thing he said is a lie, every single one.

On the topic of veterans, Biden brought out Trump’s “suckers” and “losers” remarks:

My son was not a loser. He was not a sucker. You’re the sucker. You’re the loser.

Trump denied making such a remark, and Biden pointed out that a four-star general heard him say it. And Biden brought up the “suckers and losers” remark again when the topic turned to veterans.

When Trump laid a carpet of lies and false superlatives on foreign policy, Biden started his response with:

I’ve never heard so much malarkey in my whole life.

He called Trump a convicted felon and brought up the “stand by” dog-whistle to the Proud Boys.

I don’t know where this idea came from that Biden came to this like a Princeton or Oxford debate and “thought it was more honorable and decent to win with facts.” I’m sure he feels facts are important, but he’s always had a pugnacious streak and I don’t think he curbed it or failed to bring it out at the debate. Just because he feels his insults have to be fact-based and Trump clearly doesn’t, doesn’t mean he didn’t try to get under Trump’s skin,

And I feel like Biden did get under Trump’s skin at some points. Trump used some of his answers to respond not to the present question but to Biden’s answer one or two questions back. What didn’t happen was Trump outright “losing it” but I believe his prep team somehow convinced him that tantruming on national television would feel good but wouldn’t look good. I suspect he blew like a steam boiler once he was away from CNN cameras.

As an aside, I feel that if a younger man stood agape when hearing a firehose of lies and nonsense, the average viewer would realize they were either gobsmacked or pantomiming being gobsmacked to silently convey just how nonsensical his opponent’s remarks were. Only because of the pre-existing “doesn’t she* look tired?” inception game do people see Biden’s reaction as “further” proof of his senility. Maybe it would’ve been better for Biden to throw in a few eye rolls to make his reaction clearer.

*Gender intentional, for those WHO know the reference.

I get the impression that well over 90% of the debate was ignored. “We finally beat Medicare” was just THAT determinative.

I remember how Howard Dean’s “scream” completely derailed his candidacy, even though it was only seconds and not actually that bad. A really bad moment caught on video has outsized influence.

No doubt. The question we’re left with is “Does it necessarily have to be that way? And if it does, can the negative effect be transitory and overcome?

Back to the consensus. Agreed that there is one, here at least, that it is Harris. BUT the bit about that only she could use the monies raised by Biden-Harris?

It’s complicated with some go arounds.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/09/us/politics/biden-harris-money.html?unlocked_article_code=1.6U0.RX3c.vcMetlucmEiQ&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

The best option might be the Bloomberg precedent and transferring directly to the DNC. And there are other not completely efficient but doable choices.

I think Harris would be a great choice, and so would a few other choices, like Whitmer. If Harris somehow declined, I could get excited for her too. But Harris would need to decline.

I don’t think that’s what he meant. I think he’s guilty of a very clumsy statement rather than a lie.

He said:

Notice the tense of the verb - “doesn’t have” is present tense.

I believe his remark was supposed to mean that there currently are no active American wars. I think he was basically trying to take credit for ending the war in Afghanistan, and not getting US troops tired up in Ukraine.

But it was clumsy. If he wanted to take credit for that, he should have said that.

Because what he said neglects the military activity in the Red Sea against the Houfis. Which, while it isn’t anything like ground war in Iraq and Afghanistan, it is American troops in combat.

I see it more as a possible example of his ongoing lack of mental clarity than a deliberate falsehood.

As opposed to everything out of Trump’s mouth.

I think you don’t have to worry about the outcome of the game whether your pitcher beans him or not because you’ve just stopped playing baseball.

I mean, it’s not like the Ump is going to call the batter out on a technicality of unfair interference or unnecessary violence or whatever.

Joe Biden uses an old-school Berlitz phrase book when he has to speak ‘Asshole.’ It’s a bit clumsy, a bit charming, a bit amusing, and not particularly convincing.

Which isn’t a bad thing, incidentally.

‘Asshole’ is Donald Trump’s native tongue.

I saw Biden try to land blows against Trump. I didn’t find them to be very effective, very memorable, or very quotable. They didn’t make for blistering memes.

How many Republican Primary contenders did we watch Trump fell in '16, just by being an asshole? Was it 16?

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

Ditto assholes.

Like so many things about the November election, I don’t know what the answer is vis-a-vis Biden’s style, and – in the context of the rest of the Biden picture – I doubt there’s any legit wiggle room. Pretty sure the Joe Biden cake is fully baked by now.

The only opinion I hold comfortably is that the Democrats should put everything they have behind whoever has the best chance of keeping Trump out of the White House.

And I am unreservedly agnostic toward who that person is.

I think it’s a cold, hard numbers game at this point, and – as I referenced upthread – somebody would have to be stronger than Biden by enough of a margin to make that individual’s specific hurdles and weaknesses worth trying to surmount in a relatively short period of time.

We can’t drive our family sedan 350 miles each way because there’s a gas station there that charges $0.12 less per gallon than our usual local spot :wink:

Dean came in third in Iowa, and that’s most of why his optimistic windup, listing states he was set to lose, and then screaming, as if wins were in the bag, was ridiculous. He was already unlikely to get the nomination before the scream.

If the debate was like the scream, it was an illustration that this guy doesn’t have what it takes to turn the game around.

One thing worrying me — Biden seems to be under enormous, if mostly polite, pressure to drop out, but none to resign. Maybe Pelosi and company are thinking — one step at a time, But if Biden is the President while Harris is the candidate, she’s going to be repeatedly asked how Biden could lack the skill set to campaign, but not that needed to govern. Good and fair potential question, I think. I would have thought that doing the world leader job is harder than running for office. And I think Harris needs a new president honeymoon to really break out of her own less than stellar polling vs. Trump.

Totally different skill set. Few are suggesting he needs to resign. Many are suggesting he can’t win the campaign.

Remaining term (~6.5 months) vs. another (four-year) term.

Biden said part of a summer, and Politifact said * While he has made this claim before, there is no evidence he was ever a truck driver." That is different than “we have shown that Biden never, ever drove a truck”. I wasnt really a truck driver- but I was a circulation manager for the Herald, and when the drivers went on strike, managers- including me- were asked to drive the trucks for a couple days. So, I can say- “I drove a truck for a while”- but no fact checker ever would find that I drove a newspaper truck for a few days while the drivers were on strike. Not in my resume, etc.

Unique in our nation in living memory.

I think the age thing is tough for Biden to overcome because it is real. Every single voter has dealt with aging people and understands how difficult it might be for a person in their 80’s to handle the toughest job in the world.

Trump is also old. But if his supporters actually cared about the country he would already not be the Republican nominee for many other reasons.