Stop Snitchin' - Is this as bad as it appears to be?

[Nzinga_Seated]

It is now a cultural norm that is being preached in poor communities.

I think by ‘cultural’, he meant the specific culture of silly rappers and their fans. I have heard Mr. Canada speak on the subject before, and I think he admits that ‘snitching’ is actually about gangstas ‘tattling’; not what the rapper Cam’ron claims it to be.

[Kalhoun]

@Nzinga

I think by ‘cultural’, he meant the specific culture of silly rappers and their fans. I have heard Mr. Canada speak on the subject before, and I think he admits that ‘snitching’ is actually about gangstas ‘tattling’; not what the rapper Cam’ron claims it to be.

Well, here’s more from the transcript:

COOPER: Geoffrey Canada is a national recognized educator and anti-violence advocate who has been working with children in Harlem for more than 20 years.

CANADA: Everything is all right?

COOPER: He grew up poor in a tough New York neighborhood, but says the message kids are getting today is very different and dangerous.

CANADA: People are walking around with shirts. People are going out making – making music. People are saying things that, if you’re a snitch, it’s like being an Uncle Tom was when I was growing up. It’s like, you can’t be a black person if you have a set of values that say, I will not watch crime happen in my community without getting involved to stop it.

COOPER (on camera): This slogan, this stop snitching, it now extends to rape, robbery, murder, really any crime?

CANADA: Any crime. It’s like we’re saying to the criminals, you can have our community. Just have our community. Do anything you want, and we will either deal with it ourselves, or we will simply ignore it. ’

COOPER (voice-over): Canada could no longer ignore it on February 5, 2006, when Israel Ramirez, a student he had mentored and loved like a son, was shot to death outside a soundstage in Brooklyn.

Ramirez was working as a bodyguard for the rap star Busta Rhymes, who was making this music video.

A person who was there told us Ramirez was shot in front of Busta Rhymes. He died at the scene two days before his 29th birthday, leaving a wife and three children behind.

CANADA: I just think of him, being shot, falling down, probably thinking, this might be it. And I just wonder, who held his hand? Or who caressed his head? Who told him, I’m going to be here? Who stayed with him? Who made sure this man just didn’t die alone for nothing?

COOPER: New York City Police Commissioner Ray Kelly says there were at least 25 people who may have witnessed the shooting.

(on camera): How many people have come forward to testify?

RAYMOND KELLY, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: Nobody has come forward to testify.

COOPER: No one?

KELLY: The people that we have located either were inside and didn’t see anything. Or you will get a version of, I have to work in this business. Ask Busta Rhymes what happened.

COOPER (voice-over): The police would like to ask Busta Rhymes what happened. But, even though he talked vaguely about the killing on this TV show…

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSTA RHYMES, RAPPER: A situation transpired that none of us wanted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: … he refused to talk to police or to us

Geoffrey Canada believes it’s because Busta Rhymes doesn’t want to jeopardize sales of his music and videos like this one. Canada says, being labeled a snitch might have damaged Busta Rhymes’ street cred.

CANADA: One of the things that sells music is when the artist is looked at as someone who’s come up from the streets, not just any streets, but the toughest, meanest streets of the urban ghetto. And that’s called street credibility.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RHYMES: Hey, yo, what up, Izzy? You know we had to finish this video, right?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Busta Rhymes did put this tribute to Israel Ramirez on the video he was making when Ramirez was killed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RHYMES: Just wanted to make sure that people seen this, so they know you ain’t die in vain.

Love you, and I miss you, homey. Hope we make you proud.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

The children feel the same way. I’m just not sure if it’s because they’re scared or because of the code of ethics that is repeatedly referenced.

[DrCube]

It isn’t just bikers and black people; in the Army, we followed the creed: “Don’t fuck your buddy”

Snitching on your fellow soldiers fits into the category of ‘fucking’ them, and nobody likes a buddy-fucker.

Really, though, things like murder don’t apply, but I definitely wouldn’t have snitched on a soldier who was selling drugs or doing something else equally as stupid. If they get caught, so be it, but it isn’t going to be my fault, it’s going to be theirs.

[Nzinga_Seated]

I understand what you mean, Kalhoun. But after reading the transcript, I still think this seems to apply to silly rappers and their fans. Not “the black community”.

I think maybe Busta Rhymes’ fans think it is ok to ‘hand over our communities’ to the criminals.

[Rodgers01]

@Blalron

If I believe the government mandated penalty is grossly excessive and cruel in proportion to the offense, I would not snitch. For example, if a house of prostitution and/or marijuana were right next to me, I’d never snitch on them for that.

Why not? I’d certainly “snitch” on a house of prostitution. A house of marijuana (whatever that exactly means) not so much, but any harder drugs I’d definitely tell on.

It’s ironic that yesterday over in Cafe Society someone posted this clip of Chris Rock claiming that the government hates rap, because none of the rap murders are ever prosecuted. Paraphrased: “Tupac was shot on the Vegas strip – how many witnesses do you need, and still they don’t have the murderer?” So is the problem that the government hates rap, or that the witnesses don’t want to snitch?

I found an excerpt from the news piece in question; I hope Cam’ron is not representative of anything, because he comes across as a snide, amoral ass.

[Kalhoun]

@DrCube

It isn’t just bikers and black people; in the Army, we followed the creed: “Don’t fuck your buddy”

Snitching on your fellow soldiers fits into the category of ‘fucking’ them, and nobody likes a buddy-fucker.

Really, though, things like murder don’t apply, but I definitely wouldn’t have snitched on a soldier who was selling drugs or doing something else equally as stupid. If they get caught, so be it, but it isn’t going to be my fault, it’s going to be theirs.

Lots of cops are the same way, and probably to a greater degree. I think all kids grow up with “don’t be a tattle-tale” but we’re talking about violent crime here. Would you narc out an army buddy who was beating the shit out of people or who murdered someone? Because that’s what we’re talking about here. People who witness shootings who refuse to say anything. I think most people would say something.

I forgot to add that there’s a difference (in my mind anyway) between people who share a common bond (military, cops, bikers, gangsters) and unrelated bystanders who see something. The people in the interview did not draw a distinction between people who were “in the club”, so to speak and someone just walking by and witnessing a murder.

[Rodgers01]

Okay, here’s the whole thing on YouTube. Haven’t watched it all yet.

[pizzabrat]

[Quote=pizzabrat]

@Kalhoun

I find it hard to believe that mainstream black America abides by this code.

Somebody said that it did?

@Kalhoun

Per the link:

GEOFFREY CANADA, PRESIDENT & CEO, HARLEM CHILDREN’S ZONE, INC.: When I was growing up, kids used to talk about snitching. It never extended, as a cultural norm, outside of the gangsters. It was not for regular citizens. It is now a cultural norm that is being preached in poor communities.

Okay…
Are…are you serious? :dubious:
“Poor communities” does not equal “mainstream black America”!

[Montgomery0]

Sounds like it’s Rapper Hunting Season. Would that fall under the category of Karma or Irony?

[Kalhoun]

[QUOTE=pizzabrat]

@pizzabrat

Okay…
Are…are you serious? :dubious:
“Poor communities” does not equal “mainstream black America”!

No, but “cultural norm” does.

[thirdname]

I think that interview was sloppy in that he didn’t ask the hard questions. If that guy is never going to talk to the police about anything, what about crimes against him? Get him to state that if his Lamborghini is stolen he isn’t going to report it, he’ll just let you keep it if he can’t find you I guess. What if somebody comes after him or his family?

[Rodgers01]

@riker1384

I think that interview was sloppy in that he didn’t ask the hard questions. If that guy is never going to talk to the police about anything, what about crimes against him? Get him to state that if his Lamborghini is stolen he isn’t going to report it, he’ll just let you keep it if he can’t find you I guess. What if somebody comes after him or his family?

He did ask that. The guy was shot in both arms, and declared that if he knew who had done it he still wouldn’t have turned them in.

[pizzabrat]

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]

@pizzabrat

No, but “cultural norm” does.

No it doesn’t.

[Stuffy]

Relevant study(warning PDF) by DOJ here. Like I said it’s a real problem, but it’s not caused by rap music but by the fear of living in the community where this stuff happens.

[DoctorJ]

I’ve seen T-shirts for years with the Warner Brothers “WB” logo that said, “If you see a cop…Warn a Brother”.

[jali]

@Nzinga

It has always been my understanding, and I speak as a woman that was born and raised in many high crime areas, that snitching was never about “turning in the serial killer next door”. That was perfectly reasonable, and no one needed fear retaliation for that.

It was a ‘gangsta’ code that basically meant, don’t try to cooperate with the cops against other gangsters, winning favors with the cops, such as shorter sentences or whatever.

It was a ‘gang’ thing that didn’t apply to your average citizen.

I mean, that is what I always thought. I admit, I am a bit confused now.

I am a huge fan of hip-hop, but I’m not a fan of Cam’ron. I think they asked the wrong rapper to represent hip-hop on this matter.

Nzinga - I’m from Hollis, Queens and had the same understanding.

[AskNott]

How about non-vocal snitching? There ought to be a joke in there about A Snitch In Mime, but I can’t quite put it together.

[Kalhoun]

@AskNott

How about non-vocal snitching? There ought to be a joke in there about A Snitch In Mime, but I can’t quite put it together.

(Holds hand up and points at AskNott from the other side. Then does rotating finger by ear; miming the international sign for “cuckoo!”)

[pizzabrat]

@AskNott

How about non-vocal snitching? There ought to be a joke in there about A Snitch In Mime, but I can’t quite put it together.

Good, now I have a project for this evening.
So far I’ve got that “dime” rhymes with “mime”, and is used in the idiom “drop the dime” which means “snitch”…

…but still not there yet…

[mswas]

Is this really new? Didn’t minority populations throughout history who were policed by what was perceived as an outside influence generally frown upon cooperation with the external faction?