# Stop the draft
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [March 1, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946 "2004-03-01T18:01:17Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/21 "2004-03-01T18:55:03Z")
> [@Munch](#):
>
> Because your claims of “George Bush and his crew of neocons in Washington are planning on reinstating the draft” are patently false, and it speaks to the fact that you have no idea what you’re talking about.
>
> Have you done any research on why these Democrats would want to institute a draft? Would it surprise you to find that those who have sponsored these bills lean more to the left than the majority of their Democratic associates?
>
> Now, why would a liberal-leaning Democrat want to reinstitute the draft? The argument goes, with a non-voluntary military, the government will be \*less \* likely to recklessly put them in harms way. It’s an extremely interesting slant to the issue, and IMO is a bit dangerous.
>
> How’s about you get that knee of yours checked out? It seems to be jerking uncontrollably.
Well, I guess I should’ve expected responses like this in the pit.
I will point out that you have totally avoided the actual issue, as it does not matter, at all, who sponsored the bill. You have picked a single quote and are nitpicking in order to prove I don’t know what I’m talking about.
However. As I have already pointed out, the same people finance/control both the democrats and the republicans. So, yes, Bush and his neocons. Or are you going to tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about and the major corporations who support both parties are really magical fairies and elves that I’ve dreamed up?
As for the supposed argument of left-leaning democrats (have they even existed in the last 20 years?) wanting to reinstate the draft to make it less likely, that about as convincing as those who voted to support the war in Iraq to make that less likely.
Now, do you want to get back onto the topic of keep nitpicking?
And yeah, knee jerking… funny, I get all riled up when someone wants to take control of my life and spend it in a war without my consent. I’m just wacky that way.
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### Author:  [@Uvula\_Donor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uvula_Donor)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/22 "2004-03-01T18:55:19Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> If you think that the money-power axis which the neocons make up is somehow different from the money-power axis which gives the democrats their campaign finances (and their platforms)…
>
> . . .
>
> Isn’t it just slightly possible that the same people who finance both parties have, oh, I don’t know, the same idealogy when they support both parties?
>
> Just because democrats sponsor the bill doesn’t mean that Bush doesn’t want it passed.
Then why start the thread by waving around a red flag embroidered with “George Bush” and “neocon”? Why not have said “Two bills have been introduced in Congress to reinstate the draft!”? Being shrill about it - especially given the facts - just makes you look bad.
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/23 "2004-03-01T18:58:13Z")
> [@presidebt](#):
>
> [And HR 163 Title](http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:HR00163:) :
>
> You linked the latter yourself, so I assume you’re arguing that “requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes” does not equate with “draft.” Of course the next question is, what kind of dictionary are you using?
…
wow, I’m shocked.
And wondering what the hell you’ve been reading.
Yes, that’s a draft.
Yep, that’s what I’m arguing against.
You wanna, I don’t know, actualy read what I write next time?
---
### Author:  [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/24 "2004-03-01T19:02:05Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> Well, I guess I should’ve expected responses like this in the pit.
What, responses based on research and facts? Yeah, you should have.
> [@](#):
>
> I will point out that you have totally avoided the actual issue, as it does not matter, at all, who sponsored the bill. You have picked a single quote and are nitpicking in order to prove I don’t know what I’m talking about.
I will point out that you have totally failed to provide an actual issue, as your support of your position is based entirely of false claims.
> [@](#):
>
> However. As I have already pointed out, the same people finance/control both the democrats and the republicans. So, yes, Bush and his neocons.
Your argument of “they’re all the same!” smells of Third Degree Backstepping.
> [@](#):
>
> Or are you going to tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about
You don’t know what you’re talking about.
> [@](#):
>
> and the major corporations who support both parties are really magical fairies and elves that I’ve dreamed up?
Fine. Make a solid connection between the 7 named sponsors of the bills and Dubya via major corporations. Here are their names: Rangal, McDermott, Conyers, Lewis (Georgia), Stark, Abercrombie, and Hollings.
> [@](#):
>
> As for the supposed argument of left-leaning democrats (have they even existed in the last 20 years?) wanting to reinstate the draft to make it less likely, that about as convincing as those who voted to support the war in Iraq to make that less likely.
:rolleyes:
Got an argument in there somewhere?
> [@](#):
>
> Now, do you want to get back onto the topic of keep nitpicking?
You seem to be assuming you were on a topic of substance. I’d point to presidebt’s post pointing out that the named bills don’t even involve a draft.
> [@](#):
>
> And yeah, knee jerking… funny, I get all riled up when someone wants to take control of my life and spend it in a war without my consent. I’m just wacky that way.
You said it.
---
### Author:  [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/25 "2004-03-01T19:02:09Z")
It is extremely unlikely that the Pentagon wants anything to do with spending its hard-earned taxpayer dollars on short-term recruits. It is too expensive to train someone who goes home just as they are starting to become useful. And even if you are pretty choosy, you still end up with a huge army poorly suited for any of the things that the US military does today. Unless we need to station them on the borders of Canada and Mexico to ward off invasion a 2 million strong army of barely trained conscripts just ain’t worth the effort.
As **Presidebt** noted, it sounds like we are talking conscription, rather than a draft. Somehow I doubt that in an era of relatively high unemployment there will be much political support for enlisting eighteen to twentysomethings as cheap labor. Cheap labor just isn’t that hard to find. In a boom economy, there might be support for it but as of right now, I doubt it.
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/26 "2004-03-01T19:02:48Z")
> [@Uvula Donor](#):
>
> Then why start the thread by waving around a red flag embroidered with “George Bush” and “neocon”? Why not have said “Two bills have been introduced in Congress to reinstate the draft!”? Being shrill about it - especially given the facts - just makes you look bad.
Because it’s a throw-away-phrase.
Becuase it doesn’t matter who sponsors it
and because the same people control both parties so it is the neocons
(the people who currently hold the power to start wars and set enviornmental/scientific/economic/etc pollicy)
who are at fault.
---
### Author:  [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/27 "2004-03-01T19:07:23Z")
> [@presidebt](#):
>
> Ad hominem, my ass.
My apologies, **FinnAgain** , I see the connection now between the ad hominem charge and the fact that this is not something put forth by Bush and/or neocons. I thought you were saying the bill itself did not imply a draft. Again, I apologize.
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### Author:  [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/28 "2004-03-01T19:10:49Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> …
>
> wow, I’m shocked.
>
> And wondering what the hell you’ve been reading.
>
> Yes, that’s a draft.
>
> Yep, that’s what I’m arguing against.
>
> You wanna, I don’t know, actualy read what I write next time?
Well, hell, I misinterpreted once again. And again, I owe you an apology. I’m sorry. I’ll bow out of the conversation until such time as I can pay attention. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Chastain86](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chastain86)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/29 "2004-03-01T19:13:29Z")
I have nothing to add, except that you will never again see the institution of a military draft within the United States. The topic itself is a President-killer. If Bush came forward with his endorsement of such a bill, it would be tantamount to handing the Democrats the keys to the White House doors.
In order for a draft to even be a feasible idea, we would need almost unanimous public support of military action, something that we can and never will see again.
So sit tight and don’t get your pants wound up.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/30 "2004-03-01T19:13:54Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> For the love of all that is decent and just, oppose this madman and his fascist agenda.
>
> …make sure this functionally illiterate monster isn’t given a second term!
If there’s no difference between the parties, what difference does it make who we vote for?
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/31 "2004-03-01T19:15:19Z")
> [@Munch](#):
>
> What, responses based on research and facts? Yeah, you should have.
>
> I will point out that you have totally failed to provide an actual issue, as your support of your position is based entirely of false claims.
>
> Your argument of “they’re all the same!” smells of Third Degree Backstepping.
>
> You don’t know what you’re talking about.
>
> Fine. Make a solid connection between the 7 named sponsors of the bills and Dubya via major corporations. Here are their names: Rangal, McDermott, Conyers, Lewis (Georgia), Stark, Abercrombie, and Hollings.
>
> :rolleyes:
> Got an argument in there somewhere?
>
> You seem to be assuming you were on a topic of substance. I’d point to presidebt’s post pointing out that the named bills don’t even involve a draft.
>
> You said it.
Facts and research which have nothing to do with the issue.
There are two bills.
This is fact.
They want something which is abhorent.
This is fact.
You want to draw the discussion off into other directions.
This is fact.
And just becuase you do it in the name of proving your intellectual prowess or fact finding abilities or whatever is irrelevant.
I will in turn point out that I’ve provided the links to the bills themselves. If this isn’t support of my position, I don’t know what is. Oh, do you mean support of the irrelevant statements which you’re nitpicking? Fine, forget I said them, and now concentrate on the issue please.
The argument of they’re all the same might just come from the fact that over the lats 20 years the democrats and the republicans have been adopting amazingly similar agendas and positions, that they DNC and GOP are financed by the same groups, etc…
I don’t have to make a connection between the seven named sponsors. Nor major corporations as the records exist and are quite clear that the same group of major coroporations support both the democrats and republicans as a whole. Again, this is apart from the issue of a draft, feel free to nitpick this if you really want, but please at least have the courage to say “I’m going to post a response now that has nothing to do with the issue at hand”
The argument in there, as I’m sure you picked out, is that the rational is both unconvincing and irrelevant. They want to institute the draft for whatever reason.
The bills don’t involve a draft? Pray tell what do they involve? This I’d really like to hear.
And, anybody who does not object to having their life confiscated is a fool. It’s not ‘knee jerkin’ to value your own life. That’s ridiculous. Try again.
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/32 "2004-03-01T19:19:49Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#):
>
> If there’s no difference between the parties, what difference does it make who we vote for?
because, there isn’t just Party A and Party B ?
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/33 "2004-03-01T19:20:57Z")
> [@presidebt](#):
>
> Well, hell, I misinterpreted once again. And again, I owe you an apology. I’m sorry. I’ll bow out of the conversation until such time as I can pay attention. 🙂
oh come now.
If you want to argue that it’s conscription and not a draft ~shrugs~ the fact still stands that they would claim the lives of each and every citizen of a certain age and then choose who had combat duty.
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### Author:  [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/34 "2004-03-01T19:27:13Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> Facts and research which have nothing to do with the issue.
That’s hilarious. Can I use that as a sig? I wouldn’t want people to come to the conclusion that you have any interest in the truth.
> [@](#):
>
> The bills don’t involve a draft? Pray tell what do they involve? This I’d really like to hear.
There is a difference between a draft and mandatory national service. Ask your neighborhood German to explain if you can’t be bothered to use Google.
Honestly, you have done absolutely zero research. You have absolutely no idea what those two bills are calling for (hint: not a draft). You have absolutely no idea what the intention for bringing those bills to committee are, nor have you expressed an interest in finding out.
Intellectual dishonesty really isn’t something you should flaunt.
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### Author:  [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/35 "2004-03-01T19:31:14Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> the fact still stands that they would claim the lives of each and every citizen of a certain age and then choose who had combat duty.
If you’re going to claim a fact, please provide a cite. Otherwise, shut the fuck up.
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/36 "2004-03-01T19:35:19Z")
> [@Munch](#):
>
> That’s hilarious. Can I use that as a sig? I wouldn’t want people to come to the conclusion that you have any interest in the truth.
>
> There is a difference between a draft and mandatory national service. Ask your neighborhood German to explain if you can’t be bothered to use Google.
>
> Honestly, you have done absolutely zero research. You have absolutely no idea what those two bills are calling for (hint: not a draft). You have absolutely no idea what the intention for bringing those bills to committee are, nor have you expressed an interest in finding out.
>
> Intellectual dishonesty really isn’t something you should flaunt.
And I wouldn’t want people to come to the conclusion that you have reading comprehension skills.
Notice, ‘that have nothing to do with the issue’
You can point out bush’s political connections, or the dems, but the bills are still there.
All you’ve done is throw up smoke.
So please, quote away.
Reading comprehension is something you might want to look into.
If they can call ALL people of a certain age to serve, and then choose SOME of them for military service, that sounds an awful lot like drafting.
But I’m very glad that you’ve been sitting over my shoulder and watching the research I’ve done. Anything else your crystal ball tells you?
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/37 "2004-03-01T19:37:00Z")
> [@Munch](#):
>
> If you’re going to claim a fact, please provide a cite. Otherwise, shut the fuck up.
Or, you could shut the fuck up until you read what’s already been written in this very thread?
How about the part in the bills about requiring some form of service for ALL people of a certain age?
And some of them then going for military service?
Sounds an awful lot like, oh, what I just said?
Am I expecting too much reading comprehension from you?
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### Author:  [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/38 "2004-03-01T19:39:03Z")
I’m getting it now.
I don’t think you need to worry much about the draft in any case, **FinnAgain**. I really don’t think the Army would want you.
Call it 4-F, or a Section 8, or the Group W bench, or pulling a Private Pyle, whatever. You’re clearly not a good fit for a military unit.
I’m a Navy veteran, and it’s the squirelly motherfuckers like you we really used to worry about. We had one guy have a nervous breakdown right in our Combat Information Center. Just started crying and cursing and couldn’t work anymore. And we weren’t even in a war or an exercise or anything demanding at the time. We were just in transit to Norfolk.
In the military, you depend on your unit, your shipmates, your buddies. You need somebody halfway dependable, who can follow directions. You can’t even follow the argument going on around you.
You would be a disgrace to any uniform you would wear. So don’t worry about any draft. Just sit on your ass and leave the fighting to men and women that can handle it.
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/39 "2004-03-01T19:39:30Z")
> [@Munch](#):
>
> If you’re going to claim a fact, please provide a cite. Otherwise, shut the fuck up.
wow, not only did presidebt quote the facts that you seem unable to find, but you too refrenced them in nitpicking my argument, and then you go on to deny them and tell me to shut the fuck up.
you’re right, I’ve definitely got some substandard work goin’ on in my noggin.
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stop-the-draft/231946/40 "2004-03-01T19:43:21Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#):
>
> I’m getting it now.
>
> I don’t think you need to worry much about the draft in any case, **FinnAgain**. I really don’t think the Army would want you.
>
> Call it 4-F, or a Section 8, or the Group W bench, or pulling a Private Pyle, whatever. You’re clearly not a good fit for a military unit.
>
> I’m a Navy veteran, and it’s the squirelly motherfuckers like you we really used to worry about. We had one guy have a nervous breakdown right in our Combat Information Center. Just started crying and cursing and couldn’t work anymore. And we weren’t even in a war or an exercise or anything demanding at the time. We were just in transit to Norfolk.
>
> In the military, you depend on your unit, your shipmates, your buddies. You need somebody halfway dependable, who can follow directions. You can’t even follow the argument going on around you.
>
> You would be a disgrace to any uniform you would wear. So don’t worry about any draft. Just sit on your ass and leave the fighting to men and women that can handle it.
And I’m supposed to be offended that a band of hired thugs wouldn’t want me to go and murder some folks in the name of national interests? Or die in the name of corporate profits?
Yeah, I’m disgraceful, I don’t like indoctrination, being controled, following orders, or having my life spent on someone else’s cause. Go figure.
And yes, I’ve followed the argument, I’ve just had little patience for nitpicking and things off the main topic, which is the draft (oh, I"m sorry, which is making all people of a certain age serve the federal government and some of them go to war against their will)
Bang up psychoanalysis though.
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