# Stoplight etiquette **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 8, 2018, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676 "2018-06-08T12:29:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/21 "2018-06-08T14:32:49Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I generally stop with enough distance where I can just see the rear tires of the car ahead contacting the ground. This is what I learned in Drivers Ed. more than 30 years ago and it has proved itself to be a viable and trusty method for ensuring that I have the ability to get out from behind a stopped car without extending driving lines unnecessarily. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/22 "2018-06-08T14:38:36Z")
I regularly drive in some pretty awful traffic on some awfully designed streets/lights and when I see people do “stop-light man-spreading” with traffic backed up (like where there are cars that have a green but can’t move forward without blocking an intersection) I cut in and fill the space up, if I can. Less often, I do it even if traffic isn’t backed up. A couple times I’ve smiled and waved, like I was thanking them for being so considerate as to save me a space. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![minor7flat5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minor7flat5/32/258_2.png) [@minor7flat5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minor7flat5)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/23 "2018-06-08T15:14:48Z")
I don’t really mind this behavior unless it’s at some tricky intersection where the space causes serious problems for other people. The simplest (and most common) example I see is when there is a drive-through (e.g. Dunkin’ Donuts) that has a short entrance drive and people leave forty foot gaps between themselves and the next car, resulting in other customers lining up out in the street. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/24 "2018-06-08T15:26:38Z")
When I lived in Philadelphia I’d occasionally travel into some of the really bad areas to sight-see. People would leave a lot of space in front of their vehicles to allow room for evasive action in case of attempted car jacking or similar. ---
**Author:** ![campp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@campp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/campp)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/25 "2018-06-08T15:49:04Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Sorry, what? > > They were going to cover that piece of distance regardless, whether before or after stopping. I can’t honestly see how it makes any difference. > > If you mean that they are braking more than they need to and stopping short, when they could have rolled that little bit of extra distance for free, I think that would be assuming they hadn’t allowed for rolling to a stop at the short position. My thinking is that on approach, you already have momentum. Why not roll to the most forward possible position. If you waste that distance by applying a brake, then you have to move your car through that space, that otherwise would have been behind you. And so on for everyone already at a stop. I guess it’s more of a thought experiment. But I think I’m correct. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/26 "2018-06-08T16:03:28Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Oh, I see - the sparser line means fewer people get through when it goes green. > > I wonder mow big an effect that really is though, because a less dense line of cars ought to make a smoother, more efficient start in driving through the junction when the light goes green (a line of cars close together will often do a jerky stop-start wave when they all try to begin moving) It doesn’t have to be an issue at all. If I’ve pulled up right to someone’s bumper in a line of traffic, and the light in front of us turns green, his car will start moving and I’ll wait until there’s a bit of a gap before I start moving. If I’m ten or fifteen feet behind another car, and the light turns green, I just don’t wait so long to start moving. As long as I cross the intersection with the same gap in both cases, then the same number of cars can get through the intersection before the light turns red again. Which is not to say that stopping short is never a problem. If you could pull forward to get into a turn lane, and allow cars in the through lane to proceed, you should. ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/27 "2018-06-08T16:09:39Z")
these are probably drivers who feel that they learned in driving class about leaving one or two car lengths distance between the two cars. These people also have never realized that all the cars around them pull up to the car at a stop light. There may also be a subset of people who have rear-ended cars before, and they never want to do that, again. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/28 "2018-06-08T16:11:45Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > these are probably drivers who feel that they learned in driving class about leaving one or two car lengths distance between the two cars. These people also have never realized that all the cars around them pull up to the car at a stop light. There may also be a subset of people who have rear-ended cars before, and they never want to do that, again. It’s supposed to be one car lenth per ten miles per hour of speed. So 0 while waiting for a light. It’s much worse these days because of cell phones and texting. People think stopping their car for even a millisecond is a reason to text someone and say “I’m stopped at a light”. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/29 "2018-06-08T16:16:43Z")
> [@campp](#): > > My thinking is that on approach, you already have momentum. Why not roll to the most forward possible position. If you waste that distance by applying a brake, then you have to move your car through that space, that otherwise would have been behind you. And so on for everyone already at a stop. > > I guess it’s more of a thought experiment. But I think I’m correct. 😃 Yeah, strictly speaking, every time you apply your brakes you’re wasting energy. By rolling as far forward as possible, you’re covering a bit more distance, losing some energy to friction and rolling resistance (which you would have done anyway), and braking a bit less. But all other factors do not stay constant. Suppose you and I are driving side-by-side and there’s an intersection with a red light ahead. You think that rolling an extra ten feet before stopping is saving you some gasoline. But suppose that when we saw the intersection, I lifted my foot off the gas pedal ten feet sooner than you did, in anticipation of stopping ten feet sooner. Same amount of braking over the same distance, so the energy used is the same. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/30 "2018-06-08T16:17:49Z")
My car sits low enough that I can almost see most cars’ rear tires even at a couple feet so that rule of thumb is no good. I leave at least a car length or so but I try not to be too obnoxious. Generally I don’t care about getting rear-ended into the car ahead, but when it’s me in a sea of American Pickup penis extensions that’s essentially a decapitation scenario for me, and my wife would be annoyed with that. The people that really freak me out are the ones that leave a couple car lengths in front of them at a stoplight…when they’re at the front of the line! ---
**Author:** ![Sveltington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@Sveltington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sveltington)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/31 "2018-06-08T16:18:52Z")
This happens more often than not around here. The first car in line is too far back from the crosswalk to trip the signal changer. Sometimes it takes the fool three cycles to realize they need to pull up. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/32 "2018-06-08T16:22:43Z")
> [@minor7flat5](#): > > I don’t really mind this behavior unless it’s at some tricky intersection where the space causes serious problems for other people. > > The simplest (and most common) example I see is when there is a drive-through (e.g. Dunkin’ Donuts) that has a short entrance drive and people leave forty foot gaps between themselves and the next car, resulting in other customers lining up out in the street. A few weeks ago I wrote an entire mental Pit thread about this topic, as I sat in the drive-through line at Wendy’s with my car half in the street and a bunch of people texting in their fucking cars while leaving giant gaps in front of them. ---
**Author:** ![PackerMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@PackerMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PackerMan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/33 "2018-06-08T16:28:18Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I pull up pretty close, maybe a couple of feet. A lot of people say, “Oh, I want to leave space in case someone rear-ends me” but a rear-end collision of a car stopped at a red light is very unusual and you being that last one in line when it happens is astronomical odds (although it happened to my son). > > I toot at people who block me from a left- or right-turn lane when they leave a lot of space, and when someone is obviously making a conscious effort to pull up and let me by I always wave “thank you”. Not nearly as unusual as you would think. We have a dozen or so of these a year at my company. If you get rear ended at a stop light and end up hitting the car in front of you, you will be determined to be at fault. Being able to see the pavement behind the wheels should be sufficient space. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/34 "2018-06-08T16:48:50Z")
> [@PackerMan](#): > > Not nearly as unusual as you would think. True. Accidents are uncommon; rear-enders are the most common; and of those, the car getting hit is nearly always at a full stop as opposed to stopping/recently stopped a second ago. > [@PackerMan](#): > > If you get rear ended at a stop light and end up hitting the car in front of you, you will be determined to be at fault. The circumstances under which this would be true, and any %age of negligence assigned as a result, are so specific and rare as to make this statement effectively untrue. Rather than derail this thread through further discussion, feel free to open another if you wanna box. 😉 I play nice. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/35 "2018-06-08T16:52:53Z")
After reading about this topic in another thread, I now stop about a car length behind the car in front of me. Then I move up a few inches every so often, just to see if the person behind me also moves up those couple of inches. Passes the time at a light. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/36 "2018-06-08T17:19:09Z")
> [@campp](#): > > My thinking is that on approach, you already have momentum. Why not roll to the most forward possible position. If you waste that distance by applying a brake, then you have to move your car through that space, that otherwise would have been behind you. And so on for everyone already at a stop. > > I guess it’s more of a thought experiment. But I think I’m correct. 😃 I disagree with this logic. When you stop for a light (or for any other reason), you are going to start applying your brake _x_ distance before your stopping point. Then you stop at that point. Then you start. The distance from where you began to apply your brakes to the point where you resume normal speed again is going to be same no matter what arbitrary point you chose to come to rest. The flaw in your reasoning is the idea of wasting distance by applying the brakes. You are going to “waste” distance by applying brakes no matter what, and for a skilled driver that distance will always be the same if the speed at braking start is the same and the stopping point is identified in advance. If you have to stop sooner because of the position of the car in front of you, then you will start braking earlier and still brake for _x_ distance. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/37 "2018-06-08T17:21:46Z")
> [@PackerMan](#): > > Not nearly as unusual as you would think. We have a dozen or so of these a year at my company. If you get rear ended at a stop light and end up hitting the car in front of you, you will be determined to be at fault. Being able to see the pavement behind the wheels should be sufficient space. Nope, the car doing the hitting the one at the back of the chain is at fault. And the extra space isnt really helping. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/38 "2018-06-08T18:07:37Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I’ve tried to get people to move forward but never went out of my car. In my case, it was people who stopped at a normal distance but the sensors were a few feet forward from the normal stopping position and they weren’t very sensitive, so you had to rock forward and backward a few times. > > A few times I got so tired of waiting for the light to naturally turn, which could take more than 5 minutes, that I beeped at the car in front of me while yelling out “you need to rock back and forth!” In neither case did they hear my instructions (since I didn’t leave the car but merely rolled down the window). This is incorrect. A properly set loop sensor will detect the vehicle over it. If they’re set too high, they’ll detect trucks but not bikes/scooters/motorcycles. Set too low & the opposite occurs. They are most sensitive at the edge lines so a lighter vehicle, like a bike/scooter/motorcycle is served best by riding / stopping on the edge line. The problem arises when they are paved over for some reason & not recut to the surface, which not only adds a bit of asphalt but also makes it harder to see exactly where the loop (& it’s edge lines) are. All you are doing by rocking back & forth is causing your car to drive over/off of the loop. _IF_ you were stopped at the right place to begin with, your ‘rocking’ would be unnecessary. The same thing can be accomplished by stopping a bit far back & then _slowly_ moving up, which will ensure that you’re over the loop at some point. Pretty much every state follows the [MUTCD](https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/) & has language that allows you to legally proceed thru them like a stoplight if they don’t activate. In fact most states use _identical_ language to what’s below (w/ obvious change for section #s). > [@PA 3112(c)(2)](#): > > (c) Inoperable or malfunctioning signal.–If a traffic-control signal is out of operation or is not functioning properly, including, but not limited to, a signal that uses inductive loop sensors or other automated technology to detect the presence of vehicles that fails to detect a vehicle, vehicular traffic facing a: > > (1) Green or yellow signal may proceed with caution as indicated in subsection (a)(1) and (2). > > (2) Red or completely unlighted signal shall stop in the same manner as at a stop sign, and the right to proceed shall be subject to the rules applicable after making a stop at a stop sign as provided in section 3323 (relating to stop signs and yield signs). I’m surprised no one’s said it yet; I leave more room on an uphill light to allow the vehicle in front of me to roll back a bit. > [@PackerMan](#): > > If you get rear ended at a stop light and end up hitting the car in front of you, you will be determined to be at fault. Being able to see the pavement behind the wheels should be sufficient space. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Nope, the car doing the hitting the one at the back of the chain is at fault. Sorry, **PackerMan** , the one starting the chain reaction accident is ultimately at fault for all vehicles damaged. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/39 "2018-06-08T18:54:11Z")
> [@Hi\_Neighbor](#): > > The worst is when you’re in a left-turn lane and the first person in line doesn’t pull up far enough to trigger the left-turn light. There’s a light near me like this, and if it’s not triggered, it doesn’t turn green at all - you just miss the entire cycle. ^ This. I once missed two cycles because of some moron doing this. Even after I beeped, and motioned for them to move up, they wouldn’t budge. I finally went around them and did a U-turn. They might still be there today, waiting for the light that never changes… This is one of those cases where knowing _something_ about how technology works is a big help. People are just to happily ignorant. That guy probably thought the light was broken. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676/40 "2018-06-08T18:55:19Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > I’m surprised no one’s said it yet; I leave more room on an uphill light to allow the vehicle in front of me to roll back a bit. > > Sorry, **PackerMan** , the one starting the chain reaction accident is ultimately at fault for all vehicles damaged. Yes, but a car length is fine, but as a driver who drive a stick, I appreciate your courtesy. Yep. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stoplight-etiquette/815676.md?page=3)