# Stories are hard, so movies are hard (to do well) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 18, 2015, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stories-are-hard-so-movies-are-hard-to-do-well/713005 "2015-02-18T12:27:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stories-are-hard-so-movies-are-hard-to-do-well/713005/21 "2015-02-19T03:53:55Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Ultimately you’re right, a good _epic_ story is hard to do. Filling up a 3-hour Marvel movie with the amount of plot that most people expect is destined to result in something muddled and ultimately hollow. Most of the time, right. > [@](#): > > The problem is that writers can’t win. You either cram a whole bunch of pointless, nonsensical plot into a movie (I’m looking at you, Christopher Nolan), or you recycle a very worn simple plot and hang some interesting characters, set pieces, and action onto it. The Plinkett Star Wars reviews showed how effective this is; the prequel trilogies have a modern “plot,” and the original trilogy is a bunch of simple, short stereotypes that _work_. The original _Star Wars_ was sophisticated, however. Note the relationship of Grand Moff Tarkin and Vader. The latter fears the former in a subtle, believable way. We don’t just worry about the Death Star destroying a planet–it actually does! And so on. It had grit and didn’t play by the rules. Perfect? No. The Death Star is too easily destroyed by the rebels, and there are plenty of other flaws (they let the droids escape because there are no signs of life in the pod–that doesn’t really matter in a world with droids, does it?). But it really was a different kind of movie with a solid story, hero’s journey though it may have been… > [@](#): > > Tarantino movies, which I love, don’t have a plot so much as they have 5 or 6 extremely well-crafted scenes that sometimes feature the same characters. Apt observation. Yet _Jackie Brown_ (albeit based on a novel by master plotter Elmore Leonard) and _Death Proof_ have solid story arcs. > [@](#): > > I’ve grown completely tired of the epic blockbuster at this point. I like the Marvel movies but I get really bored when they’re destroying lots of things in order to save the universe. I think the superhero plots are a lost cause and there will be a backlash soon. It’s _very_ hard to pit superhero against supervillain and make the stakes believable. It inevitably becomes: 1. Oh no, Universe will be destroyed! (As you said.) 2. Supervillain has the upper hand! (Otherwise, there is nothing to fight against.) 3. Think of some _clever_ way to defeat the villain. (Inevitably, not clever. In _Big Hero 6_, it came down to “think outside the box!” Mmm hmm… Still, fairly nice movie with the standard pretty lame story.) > [@](#): > > I did not understand the fuss about the Lord of the Rings trilogy, which had 30 hours of plot to shove into 10 hours of movie and sacrificed everything else that makes movies watchable. I never liked these movies, and slowly, over time, people seem to be seeing that they aren’t all that. I’ve even seen some articles online about how they haven’t worn very well. > [@](#): > > Any more, all I want is a simple story told well, with some interesting things to look at and maybe a few things to ponder afterwards. Recent action movies like Premium Rush and Chronicle come to mind. Neither had an original plot point in them, but they were fun. I saw _Chronicle_. I agree. It’s a more human-scale story whose outcome you really can’t guess in advance. That’s what more movie stories need to do: leave the outcome in doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stories-are-hard-so-movies-are-hard-to-do-well/713005/22 "2015-02-19T03:57:51Z")
> [@XaMcQ](#): > > Here’s my theory: the scripts start out as better stories. > > […] > > Sometimes they genuinely think it would improve the movie, but often I suspect it’s a power thing. I’ve been involved in creative projects and seen it over and over. The designer is the one who studied art and color theory and all the subjects to produce a good product, but the people who are paying want to be involved, or in control, and will make changes that often seem arbitrary. I agree. I work in advertising, and it’s usually a battle to save the client from itself. There are all manner of middle-aged men who need to stroke their egos and justify their jobs via their “input.” ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stories-are-hard-so-movies-are-hard-to-do-well/713005/23 "2015-02-19T04:01:21Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > I think you overgeneralize the Marvel movies. The Winter Soldier, for example, wasn’t a MacGuffin heavy plot and had a great story. Same for Iron Man. I know I am in a small minority, but I thought this movie was absolutely terrible. And I went into the theater and saw it by myself in full expectation of something great. I just found it dumb and unsatisfying on every level. And I found the plot to be very poor indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stories-are-hard-so-movies-are-hard-to-do-well/713005/24 "2015-02-19T04:17:22Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > I’ll grant Forrest Gump, but Saving \*\*Private Ryan \*\*and especially **Pulp Fiction** are plot driven (pulp fiction – lower case – was _always_ plot-driven). The Matrix was totally driven by the plot – it’s the story of how Neo learns of his powers and battles against the forces of evil. That’s a plot (maybe not a good one, but you can’t make a case that the movie is character-driven when Neo and the characters in it are paper thin). I cited The Matrix as a plot-driven movie. I just said it was _poorly_ plotted. I disagree with you about Private Ryan and Pulp Fiction. The thing carrying the weight of the movie isn’t continuity, it’s the characters and their conversations with one another and how they react to each others predicaments. In a plot-driven movie, you care about what the characters are doing, in a character driven one, you care about who they are. In Private Ryan, what they’re doing is walking around. Every once in a while, there’s a bit of shooting, but not in any way that is demanded by the plot. Shooting happen because it’s necessitated by the setting or in order to reveal information about the characters. Taking out the gun nest doesn’t advance them towards the McGuffin, it just reveals who the men are; visualizing D-Day was just something Spielberg needed to whack out. The whole movie was a mess. The framing device was worse (but more skillfully worked in) to the movie than Titanic - which is a pretty damn low bar already; the McGuffin is clearly just thrown in to make a lazy point; and much of the movie exists only out of a desire (like Titanic) to make a blockbuster documentary. The only reason the movie is a decent one, where Titanic was crap, is that at least it does do a good job of building the characters. And consequently, the movie rests on those characters as its underlying motor. **Pulp Fiction** is a series of interesting vignettes. I don’t see how you’re thinking that they’re plot driven? The closest thing to a plot in it is Jules’ arc, which consists of: 1. Get shot at. 2. Mull. 3. Decide to go straight. I don’t believe that, that’s why people finished the movie, applauding at the end. That Jules had a wallet which said “Bad Mother Fucker” is what people look back on and remember. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stories-are-hard-so-movies-are-hard-to-do-well/713005/25 "2015-02-19T05:06:44Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Have you read the books, or just seen the movies? If the latter, it’s not really fair to criticize Rowling. IMHO she’s a lot better plotter than you give her credit for. The broad main idea(s) may not be all that original, but she does a good job at keeping readers turning pages to find out what happens—answers to questions, solutions to mysteries, resolutions to tense situations, etc. I have read part of the first book (reading to my daughter) but not the rest. I think Rowling is talented. She is definitely a great world-builder. Hell, I am a grown adult man and I would love to matriculate at Hogworts. I am not impressed with the story of Voldemort, however. That is a lame, cliched villain. > [@](#): > > I notice you didn’t specify interesting _and original_ characters. If you held the characters to the same standard of originality as you do the plot, would they be equally hard to do well? Or is originality even relevant for characters? I think characters are very separate issue from plot, since character mirror people we know from real life, and we as humans naturally find other humans interesting. It’s not all that difficult to create a character that seems real and original, since we take interest in people based on their nuances. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stories-are-hard-so-movies-are-hard-to-do-well/713005/26 "2015-02-19T05:35:15Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > It’s not all that difficult to create a character that seems real and original, since we take interest in people based on their nuances. I wouldn’t say that. Most people aren’t able to write anything other than a Mary Sue. Even once you get past that, most characters end up as cardboard cutouts. Basically, in order to write a multitude of multifaceted characters, the writer needs to be able to keep up multiple full human brains in his one brain and that’s a tall order. Cinema has it a little bit easier because a good actor can bring nuance into the role wasn’t there on the page. That might just be the actor being himself, but that’s more than nothing. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stories-are-hard-so-movies-are-hard-to-do-well/713005/27 "2015-02-19T06:34:29Z")
How do you make original characters? There are only so many ways to be human. Lay out a huge grid of personality traits, check off a bunch, and it’s probably been done before. People often say to write what you see in life, but most everyone I know is either boring or a walking, talking stereotype. But stereotypes take hold because there really are people like that. You can try to make non-human characters that don’t follow human psychology or morality, but that’s also been done to death – monsters, gods, robots, aliens, whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stories-are-hard-so-movies-are-hard-to-do-well/713005/28 "2015-02-19T18:51:24Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I wouldn’t say that. Most people aren’t able to write anything other than a Mary Sue. Even once you get past that, most characters end up as cardboard cutouts. Basically, in order to write a multitude of multifaceted characters, the writer needs to be able to keep up multiple full human brains in his one brain and that’s a tall order. All you say is true. But my OP, poorly written I know, is about how different levels of quality in different areas are required to reach an “entertainment point.” It’s pretty easy to write a character that reaches that level. You know, when I watch a Michael Bay movie, it’s not so much that I find the Shia main character or Optimus Prime dissatisfying. Yeah, one could critique that shit all day long–it ain’t Tolstoy. But it can still entertain. What _doesn’t_ entertain is the story. Same old “world threatened” trope, no interest or entertainment value in that at all. > [@](#): > > Cinema has it a little bit easier because a good actor can bring nuance into the role wasn’t there on the page. That might just be the actor being himself, but that’s more than nothing. Yes, this. Many a character has come to life through Pacino’s facial expressions alone. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stories-are-hard-so-movies-are-hard-to-do-well/713005/29 "2015-02-19T18:58:42Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > How do you make original characters? There are only so many ways to be human. Lay out a huge grid of personality traits, check off a bunch, and it’s probably been done before. People often say to write what you see in life, but most everyone I know is either boring or a walking, talking stereotype. But stereotypes take hold because there really are people like that. Well, I think you have in essence explained my point better than I did. A stereotype or 2D character doesn’t immediately ruin a movie because it’s not unrealistic. Give the character a few interesting traits and have a good actor portray him/her, and it works. It’s not necessarily true excellence in cinema, but it’s not necessarily _bad_, either. But plots don’t work like this, since movie-style plots don’t happen in real life, and the stories that people tell in real life are interesting precisely because they are true. If my friend starts telling me about someone who got lost in the woods and had to spend the night in an ad hoc shelter, well, that’s rather interesting as a true story. That’s _not_ interesting as all as a movie story. It could work as an event in a movie, but there is no wow factor from that alone. So you have to think up a “big” story with “big” stakes, but then we are in the realm of cliche and “been there, done that.” ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stories-are-hard-so-movies-are-hard-to-do-well/713005/30 "2015-02-20T01:24:20Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > I know I am in a small minority, but I thought this movie was absolutely terrible. And I went into the theater and saw it by myself in full expectation of something great. I just found it dumb and unsatisfying on every level. And I found the plot to be very poor indeed. You’re not just in a small minority, you’re simply wrong. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stories-are-hard-so-movies-are-hard-to-do-well/713005/31 "2015-02-20T01:34:08Z")
I think a lot of it is in how you tell a story. I’ve met people who can tell us what they ate for dinner and you’re hanging on every word. I think anything can be made interesting, even if it’s total BS, if the storyteller can get his listeners or readers to care about the characters and what happens. How many books, movies, or TV shows have you seen where when it was over realized that the story was thin and the ending contrived or nonsensical? And how many have been boring, but you powered through them and it was actually a brilliantly constructed story, but tough to get through because the storyteller failed to engage you? ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stories-are-hard-so-movies-are-hard-to-do-well/713005/32 "2015-02-20T06:42:02Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > You’re not just in a small minority, you’re simply wrong. There are some people on IMDb that agree with me. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stories-are-hard-so-movies-are-hard-to-do-well/713005/33 "2015-02-20T11:43:17Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > There are some people on IMDb that agree with me. I didn’t say you were alone in being wrong. You’re still wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stories-are-hard-so-movies-are-hard-to-do-well/713005/34 "2015-02-21T14:57:49Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > I didn’t say you were alone in being wrong. You’re still wrong. No you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stories-are-hard-so-movies-are-hard-to-do-well/713005/35 "2015-02-21T19:54:07Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > No you’re wrong. We are at an impasse then. Pistols at dawn. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stories-are-hard-so-movies-are-hard-to-do-well/713005.md?page=1)