# Straight Dope 2/10/2023: Are billionaires bad for democracy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [February 10, 2023, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580 "2023-02-10T15:33:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/81 "2023-02-19T04:25:47Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > > [@msmith537](#): > > > > First of all what makes you think that is “fictional”? A lot of projects succeeded because someone invested money where everyone else thought it wouldn’t work. > > Longshot projects fail much more often than they actually succeed. That’s why they’re longshots. And that’s why things like literal moonshots tend to be funded by the government - they’re chances nobody else will take. Moonshots and Manhattan Projects tend to be funded by the government because the United States government is one of the few entities that has tens or hundreds of billions of dollars (adjusted to 2023) to fund them. But plenty of ventures have been funded by the private sector and it’s absurd to suggest otherwise. Some fail or end up unprofitable. Others turn into companies like Apple, Amazon, Netflix, SpaceX, and so on. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > This is the problem with billionaires. When one person has enough money to put bread on his table for 10,000 lifetimes, it makes him chase idiot schemes. Take Musk’s subway project. The idea here was not “what if we made a really good transit system” but rather “what if I was the founder of a new transit system.” And the harm here is that the failure of Musk-transit is taken as proof that the idea of transit itself is untenable. _Transit did not need to be disrupted_. All the ideas are sitting there on the table, but taxpayers don’t want to fund it. > > Same with Musks’s Twitter purchase. The idea was not “how can I make a fantastic Twitter.” The idea was “if I owned Twitter then I could make it work better for me.” He paid 3-5x for a company that he’s now suggesting had no future and was headed for bankruptcy. This kind of idiot scheme only makes sense if you have tons of surplus capital and aren’t accountable to board members (or voters) on how you spend it. It’s not so much that billionaires “chase idiot schemes”. If Elon wants to use his billions to design his hypersonic Hyperloop train, that’s his business (such as it is). Who to say what an “idiot scheme” is? Some regulator in Washington who never worked a private sector job in his lifetime? But I do see an issue where a single person can just come into a company as a sort of “activist investor” and just sort of wreck havoc according to their own whims or agenda without any sort of governance or oversight. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > It also bears mentioning - have you actually read _Atlas Shrugged_? The central conceit is that billionaires took their ball and went home, but it depends entirely on _magic_. As in, the libertarian utopia didn’t work because the refuseniks were so smart or productive. It worked because of an energy source that literally pulled electricity out of the air. Ayn Rand literally broke the rules of thermodynamics because she could envision no other way to make a world where billionaires are prosperous without extracting profit from the working class. That ought to tell you something. I have read it. Have you? The point wasn’t whether Galt’s Gulch was actually feasible as a functioning society. The whole point was that people should be fairly compensated for their labor and contributions. The “bad guys” (looters and moochers) are all bureaucrats, politicians, useless middlemen, lobbyists, career academics, talentless hacks and other people who are unable or unwilling to actually make real contributions to society so they seek to create these various forms of wealth redistribution to justify and fund their existence. Now Atlas Shrugged does have some interesting, even appealing ideas. However it isn’t a documentation of a real functioning society. And it also seems to gloss over some major philosophical issues and inconsistencies. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/82 "2023-02-19T17:27:10Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Moonshots and Manhattan Projects tend to be funded by the government because the United States government is one of the few entities that has tens or hundreds of billions of dollars (adjusted to 2023) to fund them. Well, the Manhattan Project cost the 2023 equivalent of $34 billion; it’s quite conceivable a private consortium could afford it. It actually cost more to develop the plane that dropped the bomb as it did to drop the bomb. Actually, the primary reason the government had to develop things like Apollo, Manhattan and the B-29 is that there was no profit motive to do those things; national defense is a public good, as was going to the Moon. They were publicly funded for exactly the same reason the sewer system is; no private interest had any reason to try. For all the talk of what SpaceX has done for space exploration, they haven’t done all that much at all for EXPLORATION, and to the extent they do, they’re working on government contracts, without which the company would not be viable. It’s not like NASA wasn’t paying aerospace companies to build rockets before. ---
**Author:** ![2\_More\_Bits](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/2_more_bits/32/4148_2.png) [@2\_More\_Bits](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2_More_Bits)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/83 "2023-02-19T17:45:37Z")
Potato potahto! ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/84 "2023-02-19T19:03:25Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > For all the talk of what SpaceX has done for space exploration, they haven’t done all that much at all for EXPLORATION, and to the extent they do, they’re working on government contracts, without which the company would not be viable. It’s not like NASA wasn’t paying aerospace companies to build rockets before. SpaceX has been working in two steps: One: prove that it can be commercially viable for a company to design, build and launch its own rockets, making space launch an ongoing service. This has culminated in the Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy launchers. Then, using the first step as a test bed- Two: design, build and launch a rocket that doesn’t merely fulfill the current paradigm of expensive aerospace contractor/ government customer launch, but which by reusability and economy of scale drops the price of space launch so dramatically as to be a game changer. SpaceX hopes its Starship will be able to launch 100-150 short tons to orbit, at ten million dollars a launch\*. If that happens entire missions that simply wouldn’t be conceivable move into the realm of possibility. \*At this writing, it looks like Starship is going to start out more expensive to launch and then hopefully get cheaper as the technology matures; we’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/85 "2023-02-19T20:14:51Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > The “bad guys” (looters and moochers) are all bureaucrats, politicians, useless middlemen, lobbyists, career academics, talentless hacks and other people who are unable or unwilling to actually make real contributions to society so they seek to create these various forms of wealth redistribution to justify and fund their existence. Notably absent from that list of looters, moochers, and redistributors are the biggest ones of all, the billionaires themselves. That’s the big lie in Ayn Rand’s works: That the billionaires are the rightful, original, and sole owners of their wealth, and didn’t get it from anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/86 "2023-02-20T14:16:20Z")
The inept James Taggart who runs Taggart Transcontinental probably qualifies. Again, I’m not sure if you’ve actually read the book or don’t get it, but there are certainly plenty of wealthy people in the world of Atlas Shrugged. They just don’t produce anything of value. That’s really the point of the book. Ayn Rand justifies the wealth of the main characters because they are either self made men like Rearden or, when they did inherit their wealth like Dagney Taggart or Francisco d’Anconia are uber-competent incorruptible businesspeople dedicated to the ethical and fair growth of their companies. They hire the best and brightest and pay them well above market wage. The antagonists maintain their wealth through protectionism, cronyism, and other nefarious means. The big lie of Atlas Shrugged is the world isn’t that black and white. It’s not like billionaires don’t create anything of value and just sit on a big metaphorical pile of gold like Scrooge McDuck while everyone else just scrounges for pennies. If you look at the [Forbes list of billionaires](https://www.forbes.com/billionaires/), a significant number (at least in the USA) founded their companies. So if someone like Jeff Bezos founds a company like Amazon and 30 years later it has a market cap of almost a trillion dollars, how much of that wealth does he deserve? He’s currently worth $171 billion or about 17%. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/87 "2023-03-25T15:45:01Z")
When will we realize that the corrupt government that the right is always complaining about works for the corrupt billionaires that the left is always complaining about? ---
**Author:** ![jadielyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jadielyn/32/8808_2.png) [@jadielyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jadielyn)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/88 "2023-03-25T20:37:02Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > the corrupt government that the right is always complaining about works for the corrupt billionaires that the left is always complaining about? it’s a losing uphill battle as long as the corrupt billionaires are spending on the media companies (and politicians) to keep people fighting against each other in distracting culture wars. It used to be “bread and circuses” now it’s “crumbs and conflict”. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/89 "2023-03-27T18:32:44Z")
A billionaire is in the news today. From ESPN: “[New England Patriots](https://www.espn.com/nfl/team/_/name/ne/new-england-patriots) owner Robert Kraft faced the camera during a video call, pointing to a small, sky-blue lapel pin on his blazer.” “The pin is the symbol of a $25 million “Stand Up to Jewish Hate” campaign launched Monday by the 81-year-old billionaire” It’s part of an anti-Semitism campaign, but I think they could’ve given it a better name… ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/90 "2023-03-27T18:55:29Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > It’s part of an anti-Semitism campaign, I think (hope) you mean an anti-anti-semetism campaign ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/91 "2023-03-27T20:29:52Z")
Lower coffee intake is proving problematic. ---
**Author:** ![Eric1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@Eric1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eric1)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/92 "2023-08-13T12:09:26Z")
I think it’s the mindset of Sam Bankman Head thinking he can get away with defying a federal judge that blows me away. In trying to relate to this thread, even if he’s no longer a billionaire he still has an aloof mindset. Now he’s in federal custody. But also going along with the thread, in this case at least the judicial system is ready to try him and our democracy’s working in this sense. ---
**Author:** ![Borborygmi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/borborygmi/32/217_2.png) [@Borborygmi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Borborygmi)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2023, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/93 "2023-08-14T22:47:14Z")
If you think you might have Sam Bankman Head consult a stylist immediately. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2024, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/94 "2024-05-09T21:18:54Z")
“I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible … Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women — two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians — have rendered the notion of “capitalist democracy” into an oxymoron.” I don’t understand his point. The increase in people on welfare and in women voting are tough for libertarians to like, to deal with, to explain, or what? How has this changed the idea of a capitalist democracy? I don’t even know what he’s trying to say. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2024, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/95 "2024-05-09T21:46:04Z")
I think he’s trying to say that democracy doesn’t work because now women and people on welfare can vote, so no libertarians will be elected. Sounds like a real mensch. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2024, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/96 "2024-05-09T22:14:15Z")
Well, there is this. This happened. Really did. (Free gift link, limited time.) > **[What Trump promised oil CEOs as he asked them to steer $1 billion to his...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/09/trump-oil-industry-campaign-money/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZWFzb24iOiJnaWZ0IiwibmJmIjoxNzE1MjI3MjAwLCJpc3MiOiJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIiwiZXhwIjoxNzE2NjA5NTk5LCJpYXQiOjE3MTUyMjcyMDAsImp0aSI6ImIwNDZiN2RiLTkwOTEtNGFhNC05N2FiLWYwNjZkNWNkZjU4OSIsInVybCI6Imh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lndhc2hpbmd0b25wb3N0LmNvbS9wb2xpdGljcy8yMDI0LzA1LzA5L3RydW1wLW9pbC1pbmR1c3RyeS1jYW1wYWlnbi1tb25leS8ifQ.l4FggMDGR9yHiIRhPzHUQee2u9vL7PR1PpVQT6Efgjk&itid=gfta)** > > Donald Trump has pledged to scrap President Biden’s policies on electric vehicles and wind energy, and other initiatives opposed by the fossil fuel industry. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2024, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/97 "2024-05-09T22:52:59Z")
This short extract from the above WaPo article is informative, and also shocking: > Trump’s response stunned several of the executives in the room overlooking the ocean: You all are wealthy enough, he said, that you should raise $1 billion to return me to the White House. At the dinner, he vowed to immediately reverse dozens of [President Biden](https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/candidates/joe-biden-2024/?itid=lk_inline_manual_4)’s environmental rules and policies and stop new ones from being enacted, according to people with knowledge of the meeting, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe a private conversation. > > Giving $1 billion would be a “deal,” Trump said, because of the taxation and regulation they would avoid thanks to him, according to the people. > > Trump’s remarkably blunt and transactional pitch reveals how the former president is targeting the oil industry to finance his reelection bid. At the same time, he has turned to the industry to help shape his environmental agenda for a second term, including rollbacks of some of Biden’s signature achievements on clean energy and electric vehicles. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2024, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/98 "2024-05-09T23:39:19Z")
At least it was well thought of. (Gift link.). But if this conduct is legal, that is also scandalous and not entirely Trump’s fault. > **[Trump Flaunts His Corruption](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/05/trumps-legal-corrupt-offer-oil-executives/678333/?gift=FNE9XeXXKzu6Z_8urufLLrob9T_fDItR3JJRU_m69eY&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share)** > > The former president’s shakedown of oil executives may not have been illegal, but it is undeniably scandalous. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/99 "2024-05-11T03:07:45Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Which means the person who started the business loses everything they put into it and is probably personally devastated by it. Most businesses, after all, are not yet-another-corporation-started-by-a-billionaire. True. But the context of the conversation was billionaires, not mom&pop sole proprietorships. When billionaires spend other people’s money on risky business ventures, they don’t do it via self- ownership. They incorporate, to rely on that insulating them personally from the risk. So the corporation may fail and file for bankruptcy, but the billionaire isn’t on the hook. And then if the company is “too big to fail”, it gets government bailouts, often with the multi-millionaires who caused the failures riding their golden parachute contracts that mean they still get paid. When CEO’s do well, they get huge bonuses. When they do poorly, they get “bought out”, i.e. paid to leave instead of being financially penalized for their poor decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2024, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580/100 "2024-05-11T07:05:25Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > How many people have been murdered by governments? How many people have been murdered by billionaires? How many people have been murdered by governments at the behest of billionaires? And even if the uber-rich aren’t going around shooting, stabbing, or poisoning people directly, how many deaths lay at the feet of business moguls for their decisions in how they make and save money? We have the EPA and OSHA and government regulations for a reason. What about outsourcing labor for dangerous activities to foreign countries with laxer laws? Paying company X to dispose of used motor oil because they charge less, since instead of sending it back for re-refining, they dump it into the water supply? How many deaths and accidents are prevented not because billionaires want to keep their workforce safe, but because they will be fined if they don’t? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-2-10-2023-are-billionaires-bad-for-democracy/979580.md?page=6)