# Straight Dope 5/5/2023: What's the difference between a cafe latte, a cappuccino, and a flat white? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [May 5, 2023, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617 "2023-05-05T14:54:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cecil\_Adams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cecil\_Adams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cecil_Adams)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/1 "2023-05-05T14:54:57Z")
**What’s the difference between a café latte, a cappuccino, and a flat white?** Looking at the situation from a global perspective, not much. I may get an argument on this point – in the coffee business, I’ve come to realize, you’ll get an argument on pretty much anything. However, I base it on scientific observation. OK, maybe not that scientific, but one does the best one can in a challenging information environment. A few data points: - Lots of people _think_ there should be a difference. _I_ think there should be a difference, at least in principle, else why have different names? And in any well-defined setting – your local coffee shop, for example, or a coffee chain, or maybe just your kitchen – there most likely _is_ a difference, based on somebody’s idea of standard practice. However, there aren’t any _standard_ standards, by which I mean not just points of commonality but a recipe you could reliably replicate. Fact is, in some cases the only point of commonality between two similarly-named products is they both contain coffee and milk. The other morning, for example, I had a macchiato from [Intelligentsia](https://www.intelligentsia.com/), a Chicago-based coffee purveyor, which consisted of a cup of espresso topped with a thin layer of foamed milk. The milk took the edge off the espresso, but barely. If you were to order this drink expecting that, based on your experience with a [Starbucks caramel macchiato](https://athome.starbucks.com/recipe/caramel-macchiato), you’d be getting a coffee-flavored milkshake, you’d be in for quite a shock. - To stipulate for the record, all milk-based espresso drinks, including not just café latte, cappuccino and flat white but also cortado, macchiato and various others, are made using the same equipment and ingredients, namely (for the pros anyway) an espresso machine, espresso coffee, and milk, although you can throw in lots of other [frivolous garnishes](https://athome.starbucks.com/recipe/pumpkin-spice-latte), of which we will not speak. What’s more, to the untrained eye, and setting aside the question of containers, the techniques for making said drinks are often indistinguishable. So if you were some kinda shady underworld barista who wanted to sneak a cappuccino through the works when a latte was specified, it wouldn’t be that hard. - The essential similarity of all coffee/milk blends having been conceded, some coffee aficionados nonetheless contend there is or ought to be a continuum of coffee-to-milk ratios (hereinafter C2M), with café latte toward the milky pole, cappuccino at the equator, flat white at International Falls, and macchiato above Point Barrow. This approach allows fine-tuning of one’s caffeine intake and a few places rigorously implement it. I ran across a [YouTube video about a coffee shop in Brno](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epMDcqKoQys), Czech Republic, a nation known for its precision engineering, here impressively displayed: café latte had a C2M ratio of 1:14, which to me is coffee on the homeopathic principle; cappuccino was 1:6 or 7; flat white was 1:4; and macchiato was 1:2. - But that seems the exception rather than the rule. At Intelligentsia a macchiato is maybe 2:1 C2M, which is one of your bolder coffee statements, but the staff readily acknowledged that, according to the house interpretation, the only difference between a flat white and a café latte was the name. When I stopped in later that day for an exploratory cappuccino at [Ritual](https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100046602356370), a coffee shop near my house, the barista pointed out the classic cappa recipe calls for 1/3 espresso, 1/3 liquid milk, and 1/3 foam, which she thought her take on it reasonably approximated (it looked that way in the glass). This gave us a C2M ratio of 1:2, a considerably more powerful jolt than you’d get in Brno, but since I was already pretty buzzed due to earlier coffees, my ability to clinically confirm this was materially impaired. - That brings us to the subject of containers or, as the coffee cognoscenti refer to them, vessels. If we posit for the sake of argument that the core difference between coffee beverages is the C2M ratio, an easy way to achieve a consistent result is to define the size of the vessel. In 2015, the year Starbucks introduced the flat white to the U.S. market, the coffee website Sprudge noted the global lack of agreement on what a flat white actually was, and [polled the citizens of Australia and New Zealand](https://sprudge.com/poll-aussies-kiwis-flat-white-mean-68499.html), where the beverage was invented in the 1980s. Surprisingly, considering Aussies and Kiwis can’t even agree on which country is actually the flat white’s birth place, although they’re certain it was one of the two, [70% thought a proper flat white ought to be served in a 5.5 or 6 ounce vessel](https://sprudge.com/things-flat-white-people-like-an-explainer-68930.html), and 59% thought it should have two shots of espresso. In other words, the consensus antipodean view was that a standard flat white had a C2M ratio of 1:3, dependably arrived at through the combination of lotta coffee + little cup. - Then along came Starbucks, [the largest coffee chain in the world](https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/f7a2773563c94390a228754e57bfe598). A flat white in the U.S., as far as the average American is concerned, is whatever Starbucks says it is. As with macchiato, the chief similarity between a Starbucks flat white and the Down Under version is they both contain coffee and milk. According to the [Starbucks online ordering page](https://www.starbucks.com/menu/product/565/hot), 8- and 12-ounce cups contain two ristretto shots (8-ounce or short cups are typically available on an off-menu basis), and 16- and 20-ounce cups contain three. A [ristretto shot](https://barbearista.com/what-is-a-ristretto-shot) is half the volume of a regular espresso shot but is said to be more intense. This complicates comparison but let’s assume that, from the standpoint of caffeine and flavor delivery, a ristretto shot is equivalent to a regular shot. The C2M ratio in this beverage, therefore, ranges from 1:4 (roughly comparable to an Oz/NZ FW) to 1:6.7 (way different). To put it another way, the C2M ratio in a Starbucks flat white isn’t determined by the name of the beverage but the size of the cup. - And no, I’m not hating on Starbucks. Since espresso coffee is brewed and delivered on a quantum basis (that is, X number of shots per drink), the same issue comes up with any coffee vendor that uses standard paper cups, meaning pretty much any vendor, period. - I could go on – I haven’t even started on milk foam vs. froth – but you see my point. The differences among popular coffee beverages are all but meaningless, [as even some coffee lovers cheerfully admit](https://www.google.com/search?q=what%27s+the+difference+between+a+cafe+latte%2C+a+cappaccino+and+a+flat+white+youtube&rlz=1C1VDKB_enUS977US977&oq=what%27s+the+difference+between+a+cafe+latte%2C+a+cappaccino+and+a+flat+white+youtube&aqs=chrome.0.69i59.5414j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:ed0cb957,vid:_6Woz2cuz64). (OK, a cappuccino will give you more of a milk mustache due to the layer of froth, a minor factor in my estimation, but whatever floats your boat.) Do I think this is an outrage? Nope, just saying don’t expect much from the nomenclature. You’re buying a custom-made beverage; if you want more coffee in it, tell the barista to add a shot. (Although they’d rather you didn’t ask for a no-foam latte – the steaming procedure needed to do this makes a godawful shriek.) - Then sit down at the counter by the window, admire the [latte art](https://www.coffeescience.org/latte-art-beginners-guide/) if you’re lucky enough to get it, and be grateful. American coffee 40 years ago was, by and large, undrinkable sludge. Now it’s easy to come by a cup that’s very good to excellent. It won’t cure everything that ails you, and it may have a silly name, but it’s a reliable small comfort in a wicked world. – CECIL ADAMS _After some time off to recharge, Cecil Adams is back! The Master can answer any question. Post questions or topics for investigation in the Cecil’s Columns forum on the Straight Dope Message Board, [boards.straightdope.com/](http://boards.straightdope.com/)._ ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/2 "2023-05-05T14:56:15Z")
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**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/3 "2023-05-05T14:58:19Z")
Excellent!! Next talk about espresso/ristretto etc, so _I_ can really get geeky about minor/nonexistent differences and details! ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/4 "2023-05-05T15:35:34Z")
Working at a coffeehouse about 25 years ago in Evanston, there was definitely a “looseness” about coffee vocabulary. For us, a cappuccino was 1/3 espresso, 1/3 hot milk, 1/3 foam. Or thereabouts. Our latte was what might be called a “reverse latte” today: about 2/3 espresso, 1/3 hot milk, dollop foam. Pretty much a stronger, not lighter, cappuccino. And a flat white didn’t exist. Even though, or perhaps because, we did our latte as a stronger coffee drink, out cafe was extolled in the press for having the best lattes around. Most lattes at other cafes were about 1/3 espresso 2/3 hot milk, dollop of foam or therabouts. About the same strength as a cappuccino, just different glassware and how much steamed milk came as milk and how much as foam. And a flat white just didn’t exist then, as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![racer72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/racer72/32/3075_2.png) [@racer72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racer72)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/5 "2023-05-05T15:40:24Z")
I found out in New Zealand, if you just order a coffee, you are going to get flat white coffee. It is basically black coffee with some milk added. It’s the same way most Kiwi’s drink their tea. I learned to order black coffee. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/6 "2023-05-05T15:46:55Z")
What a lovely country NZ must be! When I travelled in Europe, and Australia too, I believe, I would often order a coffee “with cream”. I got lots of odd looks and odd results. Once I got a coffee with a pat of butter on the side. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/7 "2023-05-05T16:27:25Z")
Sure, some may make it that way, but I agree with the barista who said those 1:5 cappuccini are bullshit and 1:2 is more like it. If I wanted a glass of milk, I would not have ordered those quadruple espressos. > [@Dung\_Beetle](#): > > Once I got a coffee with a pat of butter on the side. I have had butter tea, but have never tried it in coffee, for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/8 "2023-05-05T18:18:48Z")
> [@Dung\_Beetle](#): > > I would often order a coffee “with cream”. I got lots of odd looks and odd results. Not France. People outside might call it _café au lait_ \*, but I’ve never heard a waiter in a cafe or bistro call it anything but _cafe creme_. _n.b._ not cream, but milk. \*Not as much anymore, as the Italian style has subsumed the French version. ---
**Author:** ![Orville\_mogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/aeb1de/32.png) [@Orville\_mogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orville_mogul)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/9 "2023-05-05T19:32:30Z")
I’m glad that someone finally mentioned Italy. If you want a definitive answer, ask an Italian. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/10 "2023-05-05T19:44:34Z")
> [@Cecil\_Adams](#): > > If you were to order this drink expecting that, based on your experience with a [Starbucks caramel macchiato](https://athome.starbucks.com/recipe/caramel-macchiato), you’d be getting a coffee-flavored milkshake, you’d be in for quite a shock. Yeah, the added sugar and fat makes many Starbux drinks rather unhealthy. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/11 "2023-05-05T21:57:59Z")
Here in Berlin the nomenclature regarding coffee is a mess: every bar has a different name for a certain preparation of coffee, and sometimes the same bar will give you a different concoction depending on who is working that day. Awful. But as a matter of principle, I would personally argue that you should not put milk in coffee at all: sugar is enough, if you need something at all. Or, under the right circumstances: brandy, rum or whisky. And you should neither drink coffee from a paper cup, nor while walking (where did that hasty to-go idea come from?). Let the waiter serve your coffee in a pre-heated cup (that is the reason serious coffee places stack the cups on top of the espresso machine, to use the residual heat) while you sit down. Enjoy leisurely. Just my opinion, of course. And BTW: Coffee has really improved here too in the last 30-40 years. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/12 "2023-05-05T22:00:12Z")
There is a reason that paper cup amounts were specified, rather than saying their size or worse, the elegant names Starbucks and others use. Although this article is about other nomenclature, the same point explains it all. People like to complicate things. This is especially true, for whatever reason, with any premium beverage. But it also applies to any standard beverage that wishes to justify premium pricing. There are real but modest differences, and too much is made of them because money is made from them. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/13 "2023-05-06T04:33:49Z")
I like this. Now explain why I have this insane desire to eat Expresso straight from the bag. Hmmm? My good friend Cecil? Will it kill me? Need answer fast-ish. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/14 "2023-05-06T12:10:01Z")
Easy. Cappucino is the proper drink, while a latte and a flat white are failed cappucinos. ---
**Author:** ![FeRDNYC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ferdnyc/32/14000_2.png) [@FeRDNYC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FeRDNYC)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/15 "2023-05-06T12:12:04Z")
I’ve never had coffee. Is it any good? ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/16 "2023-05-06T20:05:54Z")
Eh. It’s ok 🤭 ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/17 "2023-05-06T20:22:29Z")
What is with this 1:something ratio, you wimps? During a nuclear stress test I went into shock when the radioactive tracer was fed from my iv. I felt bad, bad, bad, bad, so as not to infringe on anyone’s copyright. They counteracted it by hooking liquid caffeine up to the iv. Almost instantly I felt the sun shine, my spirits soar, the world fill with fluffy bunnies and sweet-smelling lilacs. That’s the only way I will have coffee in the future. Nothing less will cut it. Milk? No thanks. Fouls the stent. ---
**Author:** ![FeRDNYC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ferdnyc/32/14000_2.png) [@FeRDNYC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FeRDNYC)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/18 "2023-05-06T22:09:21Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Milk? No thanks. Fouls the stent. “Milk was a bad choice!” –Will Ferrell as Ron Burgundy, lamenting his choice of beverage accompaniment during a mid-story, mid-_ **summer** _ Shamble of Dejection and Misery, _Anchorman_ ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2023, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/19 "2023-05-06T23:17:44Z")
In Italy you can’t be ordering cappuccinos and similar after 10 a.m. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2023, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617/20 "2023-05-07T00:20:38Z")
Everyone loves rats. So why not their milk? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-5-5-2023-whats-the-difference-between-a-cafe-latte-a-cappuccino-and-a-flat-white/983617.md?page=2)