# Straight Dope 6/6/2023 - What did Johnny Appleseed actually do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [June 6, 2023, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098 "2023-06-06T13:55:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/41 "2023-06-07T13:10:27Z")
Excellent column. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/42 "2023-06-07T13:22:27Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Yeah, couldn’t you see my sarcasm? Whoops, guess not! Apologies. > [@Chronos](#): > > Apples have big, tasty fruits because they want animals to eat them, because in the process of eating them, we tend to transport the seeds. An apple tree with sweet fruits with tough, bitter skin is wasting all of that valuable sugar for nothing. It’s getting the fruit to ripeness in good condition. If the skin breaks down after the fruit drop to the ground, and the tasty inside is then eaten by critters who will move it, then it’ll work just fine. Humans, of course, are likely to harvest just before that point. Plus which, as @puzzlegal pointed out, ‘too tough and bitter for humans (and insects)’ doesn’t necessarily mean ‘too tough and bitter for wild species that will scatter the seeds.’ If her horses loved them, I bet deer would also. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > It’s true that more indifferent farmers just grew seedling apples, and ate the fruit of the tastier ones. It’s also true that even back then, there was a lot of demand for the better apples you could guarantee by grafting. But a lot of the crop went to cider, and only a little of it was eaten fresh. Yup. Hard cider keeps better than fresh apples, also; especially before reliable refrigeration. And is easier to transport for sale. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/43 "2023-06-07T13:53:18Z")
This whole grafting discussion is fascinating to me. Generally speaking, can you buy rootstock locally (assuming you live in a populous place like New England, as I do), or do you have to order it by mail? (googling suggests the latter is certainly an option) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/44 "2023-06-07T14:06:09Z")
I have never seen rootstocks for sale at garden shops or nurseries. I have purchased it by mail. There are a number of specialized nurseries that propagate and sell it. It’s pretty cheap. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/45 "2023-06-07T14:10:40Z")
Also, there’s been a lot of selective breeding of rootstock, too. The rootstock can impart a lot of valuable traits to the mature tree, including size and how much of its energy goes into fruit. Some rootstocks produce trees that mature faster than most seedling trees would. Some rootstocks are resistant to various soil pathogens and insects. You can grow your own seedling rootstock by just planting seeds, but in most cases it’s probably worth buying a selected rootstock if you want to play with grafting. (And it’s almost certainly worth investing in selected rootstock if you want to plant a commercial orchard.) ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/46 "2023-06-07T14:11:20Z")
Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/47 "2023-06-07T14:12:43Z")
Yeah, rootstock is easy, since you don’t care about what sort of fruits it’ll produce. Though I suppose there’s still at least some selection for robustness, there. You can even graft different kinds of fruit onto the same tree. My father used to have an apple/pear tree in his back yard, and you can probably do the same with other members of the family, like quince. Certainly you could have two different varieties of apple on the same tree. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/48 "2023-06-07T14:24:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yeah, rootstock is easy, since you don’t care about what sort of fruits it’ll produce. Though I suppose there’s still at least some selection for robustness, there. As @puzzlegal said, rootstocks are also carefully selected; for size of eventual tree, for speed of maturity, for resistance to insects and disease, for suitability for various soils (you don’t want the same rootstock for sandy as for clayey soils), for resistance to drought or wet feet, for suitability to have specific varieties grafted onto them (some combinations work well, others tend to fail at the graft.) These days they’re generally also purchased from nurseries; I expect that what people used to do was to use for rootstock young trees that were growing particularly well in their location but that didn’t have very good fruit. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/49 "2023-06-07T15:47:51Z")
Interesting look at the legend. Turns out to be largely what I expected the reality to be as far as effect on the apple tree population but the religious aspect is something I don’t recall mentioned anywhere. It’s not surprising, early 19th century American was fertile ground for development of religions in the expanding territory. This was the time of Joseph Smith, Shakers, the Amana colonies among many other emerging religious practices. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/50 "2023-06-07T16:05:52Z")
Whereas I had thought that it was common knowledge that Chapman was a preacher. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/51 "2023-06-07T16:09:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yeah, rootstock is easy, since you don’t care about what sort of fruits it’ll produce. I saw a video a month or two ago talking about root stock for some fruit category (grape, maybe?) and the presenter was pointing out that certain varieties of the plant have a deeper, more stable root system than other varieties. It was a better root stock than others. I could see something similar for apples. Yeah, you don’t eat it, but it is still the core nutrient system for the rest of your tree. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/52 "2023-06-07T16:15:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Whereas I had thought that it was common knowledge that Chapman was a preacher. Definitely was for me. But I grew up in Ohio; he’s likely detailed in Ohio History classes in middle school. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/53 "2023-06-07T17:37:36Z")
I had heard of him initially as a vagabond, carrying a bag of seeds to plant randomly as he wondered through the wilderness. Somewhere along the way the story got a little better with the idea he was planting orchards. No mention at all of religion that I can recall. Maybe an intentional omission at public schools, but seems unlikely in my time, prayer was banned but plenty of outright religiousness remained. This column improved my image of the guy since I had assumed this was a myth barely based on a real person. Not that the symbol of Americanality exists only because of his efforts, but that he was dedicated to his individualism, another great American attribute. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/54 "2023-06-07T18:26:03Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Definitely was for me. But I grew up in Ohio; he’s likely detailed in Ohio History classes in middle school. That’s definitely one place I heard of him. But knowledge of him just sort of suffuses the background, in these parts. Like the prayer-song @Dr_Paprika quoted (though I’d heard a slightly different version of it). Or the art on the front of the local high school: https://www.google.com/maps/embed?pb=%213m2%212sen%214v0%216m8%211m7%211sehQtp4yYdWhg6Jwu8NddDw%212m2%211d41.4812885%212d-81.7912497%213f171.1%214f10.165%215f0.75 And I’m about the strictest proponent you’ll find for separation of church and state, but even I don’t have a problem with a mention of the fact that a historical person was a preacher in public schools. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/55 "2023-06-07T18:34:24Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > It’s true that more indifferent farmers just grew seedling apples, and ate the fruit of the tastier ones. It’s also true that even back then, there was a lot of demand for the better apples you could guarantee by grafting. But a lot of the crop went to cider, and only a little of it was eaten fresh. So “only good for cider”? No. But “primarily desired for cider”? Probably. What proportion of the crop was “good to eat”? I’ve never been able to find out. To listen to Pollan and his ilk, virtually none of it was. And the way virtually all apple crops result from graftings tends to support that. If a reasonable proportion of the crop was good eating/baking apples, I haven’t heard it. (and how can you tell, without tasting?) Johnny, by the way, got his seeds from cider presses – he went through the solid detritus – which wasn’t much wanted – and took what he found. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/56 "2023-06-07T18:45:30Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Johnny, by the way, got his seeds from cider presses – he went through the solid detritus – which wasn’t much wanted – and took what he found. Thanks for another interesting tidbit. I used to think cider remains would be used for animal feed but apparently it’s mostly cellulose and too difficult for farm animals to digest. I wonder if they burned it for heat. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/57 "2023-06-07T18:49:38Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Interesting look at the legend. Turns out to be largely what I expected the reality to be as far as effect on the apple tree population but the religious aspect is something I don’t recall mentioned anywhere. It’s not surprising, early 19th century American was fertile ground for development of religions in the expanding territory. This was the time of Joseph Smith, Shakers, the Amana colonies among many other emerging religious practices. > [@Chronos](#): > > Whereas I had thought that it was common knowledge that Chapman was a preacher. > [@Pleonast](#): > > Definitely was for me. But I grew up in Ohio; he’s likely detailed in Ohio History classes in middle school. Me, too; in fact, I knew he was a Swedenborgian. I went through elementary and middle school in Ohio; don’t recall being taught about him specifically, but I think I’ve known for a while that “Johnny Appleseed” was a real person. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/58 "2023-06-07T18:50:53Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > What proportion of the crop was “good to eat”? I’ve never been able to find out. To listen to Pollan and his ilk, virtually none of it was. And the way virtually all apple crops result from graftings tends to support that. If a reasonable proportion of the crop was good eating/baking apples, I haven’t heard it. (and how can you tell, without tasting?) You do taste it, of course. And even if, say, half of the trees still produce something that’s satisfactorily edible, those satisfactory trees are still probably not as good (for whatever measure of “good” you’re using) as the best varietal anyone in your area has ever come up with or imported from elsewhere, so you’d still want to be grafting. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/59 "2023-06-07T18:55:20Z")
Re: tasting— It takes several years for apple trees to produce a crop. I don’t really understand the “use it for rootstock” vs. “taste its apples”—don’t you have to make the commitment to graft onto rootstock before it’s producing the apples? I have a grafted apple tree, but I bought it with both halves already attached. Maybe I should plant some seeds, wait a few years, and report back. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2023, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/60 "2023-06-07T19:00:30Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > don’t you have to make the commitment to graft onto rootstock before it’s producing the apples? There are various grafting techniques. Some of them will work with older trees. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098.md?page=4)