# Straight Dope 6/6/2023 - What did Johnny Appleseed actually do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [June 6, 2023, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098 "2023-06-06T13:55:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2023, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/141 "2023-06-15T17:47:37Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > On a larger scale, that’s how new varieties are developed. Let some plausible parents pollinate, plant a whole lot of seeds, plant out a whole lot of saplings, cull them as defects are found; hope to wind up with one or a few that are better than what’s already on the market. Actually that’s not how it’s done in modern times with many types of fruit trees and such. The most common source of new varieties are “[sports](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_(botany))”. Someone notices a branch of a tree has some interesting fruit (better tasting, different color, etc.), they cut some grafts off it and put it on rootstock. (Watching for any back changes.) This is how you get seedless fruits. Bananas (not technically a tree but same idea) have been propagated like this for so long that we _can’t_ grow new types that are resistant to fungus from the seeds of existing popular types. Some fruits that originated from sports go back many hundreds of years. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2023, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/142 "2023-06-15T19:43:21Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Actually that’s not how it’s done in modern times with many types of fruit trees and such. The most common source of new varieties are “[sports](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_(botany))”. I’m sure it depends on the species, but there’s been a lot of work on breeding apples (growing new ones from seeds) recently, and some genetic engineering to produce apples that don’t brown. But seeking new, valuable apple sports was a bigger deal in the 50s and 60s than it is today. So much so that some university programs irradiated apple buds to produce sports to evaluate. But today there’s a lot of breeding. Examples of breeding programs: [PRI – Perdue, Rutgers & Univerisity of Illinois: Crimson Crisp, Jersey Mac, Gold Rush, and others](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRI_disease_resistant_apple_breeding_program#:~:text=The%20PRI%20disease%20resistant%20apple,%3A%20Purdue%2C%20Rutgers%20and%20Illinois.) [Washington State: Cosmic Crisp and others](https://treefruit.wsu.edu/web-article/apple-breeding-program) [University of Minnesota: Honeycrisp, Zestar, SweeTango, Sweet Sixteen, and others](https://mnhardy.umn.edu/apples) [Cornell: Empire, Jonagold, etc.](https://cals.cornell.edu/cornell-agritech/products-we-research/tree-fruits) And genetic engineering [Arctic apples](https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2018/arctic-apples-fresh-new-take-genetic-engineering/) ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2023, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/143 "2023-06-16T16:58:44Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Bananas (not technically a tree but same idea) have been propagated like this for so long that we _can’t_ grow new types that are resistant to fungus from the seeds of existing popular types. If we can develop GMO plants and CRISPR modified plants, that would seem to mean that we can change the genetics of a seed so that it grows into some other plant than it would have naturally. And, again, that would imply that we could swap out the DNA of a natural banana seed with the DNA from a seedless banana variety, and grow a fresh, whole plant from seed. I have no idea what the success rate is on that, but it’s probably worth doing. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2023, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/144 "2023-06-17T08:55:54Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Bananas (not technically a tree but same idea) have been propagated like this for so long that we _can’t_ grow new types that are resistant to fungus from the seeds of existing popular types. Modern banana cultivars are hybrids or polyploids (or both). The ever-popular ‘Cavendish’ is a triploid _Musa acuminata_ cultivar, i.e., it has three sets of the genome rather than the usual two. It’s this non-standard number of genomes that leads to sterility. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > If we can develop GMO plants and CRISPR modified plants, that would seem to mean that we can change the genetics of a seed so that it grows into some other plant than it would have naturally. And, again, that would imply that we could swap out the DNA of a natural banana seed with the DNA from a seedless banana variety, and grow a fresh, whole plant from seed. I know CRISPR is all the rage and oh so very sexy, but [_Agrobacterium_-mediated plant transformation](https://bioone.org/journals/the-arabidopsis-book/volume-2017/issue-15/tab.0186/Agrobacterium-Mediated-Plant-Transformation-Biology-and-Applications/10.1199/tab.0186.full) is tried and tested technology. It’s already been used to produce resistant bananas. Dale, J., James, A., Paul, JY. _et al._ Transgenic Cavendish bananas with resistance to Fusarium wilt tropical race 4. _Nat Commun_ **8** , 1496 (2017). [Transgenic Cavendish bananas with resistance to Fusarium wilt tropical race 4 | Nature Communications](https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-017-01670-6) > ## Abstract > > Banana (_Musa_ spp.) is a staple food for more than 400 million people. Over 40% of world production and virtually all the export trade is based on Cavendish banana. However, Cavendish banana is under threat from a virulent fungus, _Fusarium oxysporum_ f. sp. _cubense_ tropical race 4 (TR4) for which no acceptable resistant replacement has been identified. Here we report the identification of transgenic Cavendish with resistance to TR4. In our 3-year field trial, two lines of transgenic Cavendish, one transformed with _RGA2_, a gene isolated from a TR4-resistant diploid banana, and the other with a nematode-derived gene, _Ced9_, remain disease free. Transgene expression in the RGA2 lines is strongly correlated with resistance. Endogenous RGA2 homologs are also present in Cavendish but are expressed tenfold lower than that in our most resistant transgenic line. The expression of these homologs can potentially be elevated through gene editing, to provide non-transgenic resistance. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2023, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/145 "2023-06-19T01:34:48Z")
My mother’s family had a large orchard down in Georgia, and a cider press. I don’t know anything about grafting, but i can answer a few questions above. Please keep in mind these are the recollections of a kid helping out on the farm in Summer. Modern apples are 2-3 times the size of their predecessors. The tree that grows from the seed (even supposing the bees haven’t mixed the pollens to make Franken-seeds) can’t support the fruit. The tree would just split, or fail to provide enough sap, or fall over in the first big storm. It needs root stock bred for deep tap roots and stronger wood to support the fruit through wind and drought. You can’t feed cider press solids to animals because the seeds contain small amounts of poison. (Arsenic maybe? I don’t recall.) Anyway, an apple or two is fine for a horse, but they won’t survive a concentrated mash of pressed apple solids. We always just composted them. If you didn’t let it get too hot (heat broke down the pouson) it left a soil that was nutritious, held water well, and killed a lot of bugs. Sadly it also killed earthworms. Peach pits had even more concentrated poisons and we used them like mulch to make protective rings that killed slugs. Sweet apples that are too ugly to sell become fresh cider. Sour apples become hard cider. Really sour apples become hard, mulled cider. (With added spices and molasses as necessary.) Cooking also sweetens sour or starchy apples, so applesauce and baked apples made with them will still be delicious. So none of those seed-sown trees would have been wasted, you just use them differently. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2023, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/146 "2023-06-19T01:41:57Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > You can’t feed cider press solids to animals because the seeds contain small amounts of poison. (Arsenic maybe? I don’t recall.) Cyanide. And it’s very, very small amounts. Your family might have worried about it, but they probably didn’t need to. Drupes like peaches and almonds have more. In fact, there are some varieties of almond that can kill you just by eating a few of them. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2023, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/147 "2023-06-19T05:14:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Cyanide. And it’s very, very small amounts. Your family might have worried about it, but they probably didn’t need to. If the apples were from seedlings, there was probably a variation in how much each had. So some may have had more than usual for apples and their worry about it would not have been misplaced. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2023, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/148 "2023-06-21T07:28:27Z")
More importantly, cider press leavings are mostly seeds. It’s would be a much bigger dose of seeds than you all are picturing, i think. Obviously I’ve never tested it, but there are stories about prisoners saving up apple seeds to commit suicide with. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/149 "2023-07-10T11:11:09Z")
There’s an interesting article in yesterday’s Boston Sunday Globe about a guy trying to locate some of the many lost varieties of apples from remaining trees. I had to post quotes from the article (which is paywalled – I post the link below, though), because the numbers astonish me From “In Search of the Lost Apples of New England” by Veronique Greenwood, Boston Sunday Globe July 9 2023 > [@](#): > > In the 19th century there was a great appetite for apples in New England. People bought trees from mail-order catalogs. They took scions from promising trees at their neighbors… > > But around 1900 there came a great winnowing. Commercial apple-growers were consolidating themselves, and they wanted just a few well-behaved varieties. Today very, very few individuals of that riot of apple diversity are still grown – out of perhaps 16,000 varieties, probably no more than 50 or so are left. _16,0000 varieties_! “You can read old catalogs and lust for a Danvers Winter Sweet or whatever, but no one has those anymore.” It goes on to mention that a variety called Golden Russet was prized for its use in cider, which shows that not all cider making was indiscriminate alcoholic brewing. Apparently GR still exists, but it originally came in a number of sub-varieties that they’re still trying to unscramble. > **[In search of the lost apples of New England - The Boston Globe](https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/07/04/opinion/apples-genetics-biodiversity/)** > > Once, the fruit came in thousands of varieties. Most of them have vanished or will be gone soon — unless John Bunker can track them down. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2023, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/150 "2023-07-12T23:24:29Z")
John Bunker – that’s a familiar name. I know him from a mailing list about fruit, and also as part of Fedco Seeds; though he recently retired from there. There are a number of companies (Fedco among them) carrying heirloom apples. Getting the right names attached is indeed important work. And there are undoubtedly still excellent trees out there that nobody’s rescued yet. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2023, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098/151 "2023-07-13T00:35:29Z")
Most of those 16,000 cultivars weren’t anything special. Every seed produces a new apple tree, after all. There aren’t a lot of types of apple for sale at supermarkets, but there are several hundred you can buy a tree of, without a lot of work. If only i had more sun and fewer squirrels… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-6-6-2023-what-did-johnny-appleseed-actually-do/985098.md?page=7)