# Straight dope on Crossing fingers **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 20, 2007, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-crossing-fingers/427133 "2007-11-20T02:32:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2007, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-crossing-fingers/427133/1 "2007-11-20T02:32:43Z")
The gesture of crossing one’s index and middle finger (seen here as the [logo for the Oregon state lottery](http://www.oregonlottery.org/)), seems to have two entirely separate meanings. As in the logo, it can be used as a lucky charm. If hidden while making a statement, it means that the statement was a lie and that the teller is absolved from any punishment for lying. So, question one: What the heck is up with these meanings, especially the second one? How did one hand gesture engender two so different meanings? Question two: How far back does this hand gesture date? Question three: Presuming this hand gesture is only common to the English speaking world, do other cultures have similar hand gestures? If so, what are they? If this hand gesture is common to other cultures, why? And does the meaning translate the same? I’m so perplexed! ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2007, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-crossing-fingers/427133/2 "2007-11-20T02:35:46Z")
I always thought that when you crossed your fingers behind your back while lying it was a warding gesture, warding off being found out, and warding off “the Wrath of the Gods” also? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2007, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-crossing-fingers/427133/3 "2007-11-20T02:37:34Z")
[QUOTE=Zabali\_Clawbane] I always thought that when you crossed your fingers behind your back while lying it was a warding gesture, warding off being found out, and warding off “the Wrath of the Gods” also? 😕 [/QUOTE] I’ve seen it used that way, but I’ve also seen it as a get out free card sort of thing. The person tells the lie, the listener calls them on it, the lier holds up the crossed fingers, usually while saying “neener neener neener, you can’t get me.” Granted, I haven’t seen this exchange in many years. Thank Og. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2007, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-crossing-fingers/427133/4 "2007-11-20T02:38:29Z")
[Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossed_fingers) article. > [@](#): > > To cross one’s fingers is a hand gesture used to superstitiously wish for good luck or to nullify a promise. The supposed loophole of crossing one’s fingers whilst making a promise is usually exploited by school-aged children. > > Crossing one’s fingers, by curling the middle finger over the index, is thought to bring good luck. This dates back to when crossed fingers were used as a gesture to ward off witches and others considered to be or possess evil spirits. It is also seen as bad luck to cross your fingers on both hands. > > The gesture originates from pre-Christian times and, in many early European cultures, two people were required to use their index fingers to form the sign, one to make a wish and the other to support it. It was believed that the cross was a symbol of unity and that benign spirits dwelt at its intersecting point—to wish on a cross was a figurative way of securing the wish at the intersection until it came true. Over the years, the custom was modified so one person could make a wish on his/her own. ---
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2007, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-crossing-fingers/427133/5 "2007-11-20T02:40:57Z")
Damn it. My wiki-fu needs tuning. Thanks, **Jonny L.A.** ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2007, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-crossing-fingers/427133/6 "2007-11-20T03:12:34Z")
[QUOTE=Pullet] Damn it. My wiki-fu needs tuning. Thanks, **Jonny L.A.** [/QUOTE] My Wiki-fu fails me sometimes to. It’s the least I can do for the chicken gall bladder info. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2007, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-crossing-fingers/427133/7 "2007-11-20T04:42:41Z")
> [@wiki](#): > > The gesture originates from pre-Christian times and, in many early European cultures, two people were required to use their index fingers to form the sign, one to make a wish and the other to support it. It was believed that the cross was a symbol of unity and that benign spirits dwelt at its intersecting point—to wish on a cross was a figurative way of securing the wish at the intersection until it came true. Over the years, the custom was modified so one person could make a wish on his/her own. If this dates to pre-Christian times, why did it represent a cross? ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2007, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-crossing-fingers/427133/8 "2007-11-20T05:13:38Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] If this dates to pre-Christian times, why did it represent a cross? [/QUOTE] The cross, being a very basic symbol, goes back way past Christianity and has been used by cultures all over the world. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2007, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-crossing-fingers/427133/9 "2007-11-20T13:00:36Z")
> [@wikipedia](#): > > … two people were required to use their index fingers to form the sign, one to make a wish and the other to support it. It was believed that the cross was a symbol of unity … [QUOTE=samclem] If this dates to pre-Christian times, why did it represent a cross? [/QUOTE] I too had always thought that the crossed fingers represented the Cross, and that **both** the “good luck” and the “voided promise” were results of the idea that with this cross, the person believed that Jesus would be with him. However, in light of Wikipedia’s information, I’d suggest a different idea. And as **samclem** suggests, this idea has nothing to do with the Christian ideas of a cross: When two people form this sign together, their fingers are joined or knotted in a way which symbolizes unity. And when done by a single individual, the two fingers are curled around each other, and they look (to me at least) very much like cords which are twisted to form a single rope, an even better symbol of unity. ---
**Author:** ![MartinL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@MartinL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MartinL)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2007, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-crossing-fingers/427133/10 "2007-11-20T13:27:00Z")
I know for sure that in the German speaking world (and I suspect in most of Europe), crossing your fingers has only the “voided promise” meaning, and nothing else. So wishing somebody good luck and showing them the crossed fingers at the same time really means wishing them bad luck, and ridiculing them on top of that. It took me a while to figure that out when watching American movies. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2007, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-crossing-fingers/427133/11 "2007-11-20T13:27:04Z")
If ever a topic cried out for an Official Cecil Investigation, this one is ripe. I will be crossing my fingers while I wait for it. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2007, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-crossing-fingers/427133/12 "2007-11-20T13:33:33Z")
[QUOTE=WF Tomba] The cross, being a very basic symbol, goes back way past Christianity and has been used by cultures all over the world. [/QUOTE] Any info on what the basic meaning of it was, in Pre-Christian times? Can you link to a discussion of pre-Christian symbols? Maybe Egyptian hieroglyphics would help…off to read. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2007, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-crossing-fingers/427133/13 "2007-11-20T13:52:34Z")
[QUOTE=MartinL] I know for sure that in the German speaking world (and I suspect in most of Europe), crossing your fingers has only the “voided promise” meaning, and nothing else. So wishing somebody good luck and showing them the crossed fingers at the same time really means wishing them bad luck, and ridiculing them on top of that. It took me a while to figure that out when watching American movies. [/QUOTE] Data point – in Israel (non-English Speaking but heavily influenced by **many** cultures, including English speaking ones), crossed fingers carry both meanings (good luck and “free lie”.) I, too, suspect that the meanings are somewhat overlapping, in that the ides behind crossing fingers while lying is to ask for good luck in not being fouind out / not suffering the consequences of the sin of lying. ---
**Author:** ![VanillaGorilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@VanillaGorilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VanillaGorilla)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2007, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-crossing-fingers/427133/14 "2007-11-20T14:30:09Z")
[QUOTE=Pullet] Question three: Presuming this hand gesture is only common to the English speaking world, do other cultures have similar hand gestures? If so, what are they? If this hand gesture is common to other cultures, why? And does the meaning translate the same? I’m so perplexed! [/QUOTE] In Sweden we don’t cross our fingers for good luck, we “hold our thumbs”. We still cross our fingers when telling a lie, though. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2007, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-crossing-fingers/427133/15 "2007-11-20T15:39:03Z")
[QUOTE=MartinL] I know for sure that in the German speaking world (and I suspect in most of Europe), crossing your fingers has only the “voided promise” meaning, and nothing else. So wishing somebody good luck and showing them the crossed fingers at the same time really means wishing them bad luck, and ridiculing them on top of that. It took me a while to figure that out when watching American movies. [/QUOTE] Here in England, it’s the reverse: the “good luck” meaning is native, and the “voided promise” sense is the one I’ve picked up from American media. I imagine that this would explain Pullet’s question of how one gesture has two separate meanings – they came to America with separate sets of immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2007, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-crossing-fingers/427133/16 "2007-11-20T16:12:00Z")
The [Sun Cross](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_cross) is an example of a pre-Christian cross. I think the particular dimensions of the Christian cross (with one arm longer than the others to look like a Roman execution device) are probably unique to Christianity. A swastika is another widespread non-Christian cross design. ---
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2007, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-crossing-fingers/427133/17 "2007-11-20T17:27:36Z")
[QUOTE=Etumretniw] In Sweden we don’t cross our fingers for good luck, we “hold our thumbs”. We still cross our fingers when telling a lie, though. [/QUOTE] Hold your thumbs how? Do you stuff your thumb into your fist, or wrap the fingers of the opposite hand around the thumb? > [@WotNot](#): > > Here in England, it’s the reverse: the “good luck” meaning is native, and the “voided promise” sense is the one I’ve picked up from American media. Huh. So two distinct origins. Or one origin (warding off badness) that split (ward off badness in general and ward off specific punishment for misdeed) that then got introduced by separate cultures in America to create a symbol with two fairly distinct meanings. Have I got it? ---
**Author:** ![VanillaGorilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@VanillaGorilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VanillaGorilla)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2007, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-crossing-fingers/427133/18 "2007-11-20T18:31:41Z")
[QUOTE=Pullet] Hold your thumbs how? Do you stuff your thumb into your fist, or wrap the fingers of the opposite hand around the thumb? [/QUOTE] The former.