# Straight Dope on Falun Gong **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 20, 2006, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-falun-gong/353524 "2006-04-20T20:56:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-falun-gong/353524/21 "2006-04-24T04:45:58Z")
Is the Epoch Times a Falun Gong newspaper? ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-falun-gong/353524/22 "2006-04-24T05:07:19Z")
> [@FlyingRamenMonster](#): > > What, you think EVERY day in China is June 4th? Yep, pretty much, [cite](http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0415china-riot0415.html), google away for plenty more. Also check out the “reforms” that have been pushed on Hong Kong, want me to google them for you as well? ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-falun-gong/353524/23 "2006-04-24T05:45:55Z")
Basically, the villagers constructed dikes illegallly, and were injured while protesting their destruction? D: Tell me, have you ever _lived_ in China? ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-falun-gong/353524/24 "2006-04-24T06:04:49Z")
Former Duran Duran and Soul Asylum drummer Sterling Campbell turned to Falun Gong. So now it’s a cult that rocks! ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-falun-gong/353524/25 "2006-04-24T06:22:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > As I understand cults, one of their defining characteristics is a leader who is deeply revered and often considered more than human. I’m not an expert on Falun Gong, but they seem to have that going in spades. See, this is one of those things I have a problem with. Once we start down this road, where does it end? “Cults make their followers shave their heads.” “Cults require their followers to wear special underpants.” “Cults occasionally observe fast days.” I’ve already branded a few major religions as ‘cults’ with those little jibes. Cults are abusive. That is the only definition that matters. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-falun-gong/353524/26 "2006-04-24T12:14:31Z")
> [@Operation Ripper](#): > > Cultural Revolution, Tiananmen Square ring a bell? dude, the cultural revolution basically ended in 1971 although not officially pronounced dead until 1976. i’ll give you a head’s up that people who were directly or indirectly negatively affected by the cultural revolution generally find it deeply offensive for someone that knows little to throw out the CR as some panacea. tian’anmen was a tragedy. however the economy has doubled more than twice as the modernization of china goes at breakneck speed. the china of 1989 bears little resemblance to today. and my family has relatives that still live in the countryside that were resettled in the 60’s, others that did time in the loagai, others that were struggled etc. and i was here before 1989 and still here now and seen many of the changes good & bad. falun gong are a buncha wacko nutjob brainwashing cultists with a messanical leader demanding total obedience & cash. ya wanna get your panties in a twist over religion in china, there are plenty of religions and groups that could use help instead of flg masquerading as a persecuted religion. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-falun-gong/353524/27 "2006-04-24T18:28:35Z")
> [@Operation Ripper](#): > > Yep, pretty much, [cite](http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0415china-riot0415.html), google away for plenty more. Also check out the “reforms” that have been pushed on Hong Kong, want me to google them for you as well? By that standard, every day in the US is a Rodney King race riot. Having visited China, it is far from a police state, and has changed greatly over the last 20 years. State-managed capitalism, and a general “live and let live, just don’t rock the boat” ethic. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-falun-gong/353524/28 "2006-04-24T20:14:18Z")
China has seen quite a few of these mystery cults metamorphose into potentially regime-toppling armed movements. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White\_Lotus\_Society\_(triad)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Lotus_Society_%28triad%29) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fists\_of\_Righteous\_Harmony](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fists_of_Righteous_Harmony) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-falun-gong/353524/29 "2006-04-24T20:25:55Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > See, this is one of those things I have a problem with. Once we start down this road, where does it end? I completely understand your point, and I wouldn’t argue against it. I was trying to deal with one aspect the question “is Falun Gong a cult, as most people today use the term?” Yes, the term is selectively applied. But in terms of the veneration of Li Gong, Falun Gong fits the bill in my opinion. > [@](#): > > Cults are abusive. That is the only definition that matters. “Abusive” is so subjective that I doubt it’d make a good definition. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2006, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-falun-gong/353524/30 "2006-04-25T04:13:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > “Abusive” is so subjective that I doubt it’d make a good definition. I don’t think so, if you keep in mind that I meant the term to mean the same things it means when a relationship between two people is described as abusive in a legal context, as the basis for a charge of child abuse or spousal abuse or similar. I think the definition of ‘cult’ can be placed on a footing just as firm. ---
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2006, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-falun-gong/353524/31 "2006-04-25T12:57:32Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > China has seen quite a few of these mystery cults metamorphose into potentially regime-toppling armed movements. That’s what I was thinking. The “invincible to weapons” thing is just so Fists of Righteous Harmony, and everyone is using it these days, but I guess it’s cheaper than recruiting educated people and giving them body armor. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2006, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-falun-gong/353524/32 "2006-04-25T14:04:52Z")
Here’s a little history of FLG for you. The founder of FLG, Li Hong Zhi, started the thing in the mid 90s. At that time, and still more so now, China was absolutely awash with crackpots selling health and wellness snake oil, many of which are products that have been discredited as such in the west a long time ago. All the miracle hair growth, weight loss, electric-shock belly shrinking pseudoscience wonder gadgets in the last 10 years were flooding into China on the wave of unregulated consumerism into the homes of largely ignorant buyers. FLG is one of these. At the beginning, the Chinese goverment actually supported FLG, just as it often supports “Traditional Chinese” medicine, regardless of it having any scientific basis. It’s sort of a nationalistic policy. The problem began in 1998-99, when several prominent _scientists_, real ones, wrote (completely reasonable) articles denoucing FLG as a “feudal superstition”. This, to the suprise of everyone, resulted in large scale demonstrations first aimed at the authors of the articles, and then in front of the Chinese seat of goverment itself (ZhongNanHai). Feudal Superstition is a rather loaded term in China, as the goverment makes a distinction between “religion”, which is permissible, and “superstition”, which is not. The line is a little blurry, but once you build up a following large and assertive enough to launch protests and intimidate university professors on campus, you were pretty much guaranteed “cult” status (heh). The fact that the FLG advocates beliefs that are completely insane, and that Li Hong Zhi made a tidy little fortune(he denies this) before escaping to exile in the US is just sort of icing on the cake. Now, after the goverment cracked down, that vast majority of “practitioners” simply stopped(in pulbic, anyway), as per the goverment instructions, and not much more was said. The hard core protestors were of course arrested, and some progressive types grumbled a little about the principle of the whole thing, but all in all most ordinary Chinese are rather indifferent to the entire matter, and dismiss the protestors and self immolators as misguided nutcases, which they generally are. I have no opinion of the “cult” status as set out by the posters here, but according to [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falungong#Is_Falun_Gong_a_cult.3F): > [@](#): > > Is Falun Gong a cult? > > Critics of Falun Gong in the West argue that because of the relationship of dependency that Li Hongzhi establishes between himself and his followers, using what they say are a variety of manipulative techniques, the Falun Gong should be thought of as a cult rather than a new religious movement or metaphysical qigong. A number of American cult experts, including Rick Ross, Margaret Singer and Steven Hassan, have claimed that Li Hongzhi meets their definition of a manipulative cult leader. While cult experts have not reached a consensus definition for a cult, they often focus on what is considered the coercive behavior of the group leader as an indicator for the potentially damaging aspects of a particular group. In a New Times article (March 23-29, 2000) cult expert Margaret Singer stated: “Some will say it’s not but Falun Gong looks like a cult to me. My criteria is a self-appointed person with secret knowledge to share, who gets his followers convinced he is the pipeline to the eternal good life. Doesn’t that sound like Master Li?” > > Different theories of what constitutes thought control have also emerged, but again without consensus. American psychologist and exit counselor Steve Hassan has “grave concerns about the personage of Li Hongzhi, head of the Falun Dafa and his organization.” [81] In his 2002 book Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves, Hassan describes the BITE (Behavior, Information, Thought and Emotion) model, which explains mind control as a combination of control over behavior, information, thought and emotions. Hassan believes that Li Hongzhi “comes very much out of the cult extreme, the authoritarian stereotype” [82]. On his website [83], Hassan states: > > ``` > As far as the controls exerted by the group on individuals, I am not convinced that this group (Falun Gong) fulfills my BITE model in its entirety. I have not had an opportunity to interview any individuals who have been very involved with this group and decided to leave. I do have a strong impression that Thought control and Phobia indoctrination (emotional control) is very much used. People are made to feel that the only "true" path is by following Li Hongzhi, and that to fail to do so would result in serious physical health problems manifesting. > > ``` > > However, opinions within the scientific community are notably varied. According to Philip Jenkins (2000) (quoted by Porter 2003), along with fringe religious groups almost always came movements to denounce or even eradicate them; the definition of a cult was not created in a vacuum, but rather is “a prefabricated script some centuries in the making, incorporating charges that might originally have been developed long ago against a wide variety of movements”. Porter points out that supernormality was already a part of qigong before Falun Gong was introduced, as was moral guidance. Also, “Falun Gong does not force practitioners to sign contracts, threaten physical or economic harm for apostasy, or any other such coercive methods that are often attributed to cults. If someone tried Falun Gong and disliked it for any reason, they would have nothing to fear from practitioners. Also, it is interesting to note that practitioners are cognizant that Falun Gong does not fit neatly into categories like qigong or religion, and some are looking for more accurate ways of describing it to non-practitioners.” Porter also opines that it is unfair to make comparisons between Falun Gong and cults such as People’s Temple and Branch Davidians; “such statements irresponsibly leave the impression that Falun Gong has similarities to these violent groups, when in fact Falun Gong practitioners have consistently refused to use violence against those who persecute them.” > > The “thought control” theory greatly divides scholars. The scientific evidence on such phenomena remains inconclusive. For example, in 1984 the American Psychological Association (APA) requested Margaret Singer to set up a working group called Task Force on Deceptive and Indirect Methods of Persuasion and Control (DIMPAC). In 1987, the committee submitted its final report to the Board of Social and Ethical Responsibility for Psychology of the APA. On 11 May 1987 the Board rejected the report. In the rejection memo is stated: “Finally, after much consideration, BSERP does not believe that we have sufficient information available to guide us in taking a position on this issue.” [84] > > Sociologist Susan Palmer’s field notes and a preliminary research report on Falun Dafa practitioners were released in the Nova Religio journal (nr. 4, 1 October 2000). The article states: “When I first decided to embark on studying Falun Gong, I hoped to crack the surface within a month and expected to find an efficient core group behind the scenes, masterminding the missionary programs. I had researched other new religions whose leaders were in seclusion… But Falun Gong does not behave like other new religions. For one thing, its organization - if one can even call it that - is quite nebulous. There are no church buildings, rented spaces, no priests or administrators. At first I assumed this was defensive, that they had established guerrilla-style cells to fend off an intolerant Communist Party. By now, I’m beginning to think that what you see is exactly what you get - Master Li’s letters on the Net on the one hand and a global network of practitioners on the other. Traveling through North America, all I dug up was a handful of volunteer contact persons. The local membership (they vehemently reject that word) is whoever happens to show up at the park on a particular Saturday morning to do qigong.” ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2006, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-falun-gong/353524/33 "2006-04-25T14:28:38Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > China has seen quite a few of these mystery cults metamorphose into potentially regime-toppling armed movements. > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White\_Lotus\_Society\_(triad)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Lotus_Society_%28triad%29) > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fists\_of\_Righteous\_Harmony](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fists_of_Righteous_Harmony) I think that the [TAIPING REBELLION (LINK)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion) explains a lot about Modern China’s attitude towards both religious cults **and** towards Western calls for religious freedom. > [@](#): > > The Taiping Rebellion (1851–1864) was perhaps the bloodiest civil war in human history, a clash between the forces of the Qing Empire in China and those inspired by a Hakka self-proclaimed mystic named Hong Xiuquan, a Christian convert who had claimed that he was the new Messiah and younger brother of Jesus Christ. He and his followers established the Kingdom of Heavenly Peace (Traditional Chinese: 太平天國; Hanyu Pinyin: Tàipíng Tiānguó; Wade-Giles: T’ai-p’ing t’ien-kuo) and attained control of significant parts of southern China. Most accurate sources put the total deaths at about 20 million civilians and army personnel, although some claim the death toll was much higher (as many as 50 million according to at least one source.[1] - **Please go back & read my linked article. Thank you.** \* ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-falun-gong/353524/34 "2006-04-26T11:11:40Z")
[QUOTE=kawaiitentaclebeast] Here’s a little history of FLG for you. [/QUOTE=kawaiitentaclebeast] dang, t at was a great summation you wrote up. thanks ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-falun-gong/353524/35 "2006-04-26T12:58:36Z")
Cult or not, nothing can justify the removal of organs from living donors involuntarily. :eek: [http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-4-24/40734.html](http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-4-24/40734.html) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-falun-gong/353524/36 "2006-04-26T13:08:21Z")
Wow. Johana, thanks for that link! Ick. Thpppt. Guys, is that link credible? I wanted to think it was a hoax, but that site LOOKS professional. Is the Epoch Times a trustworthy media source? ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-falun-gong/353524/37 "2006-04-26T13:43:50Z")
Well, [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Epoch_Times) is the Wiki article on it… reading it has made me realise that I actually get that paper here. In fact, I line my guinea pigs’ cage with it :eek: That’s not meant to show what I think of it, by the way. It just happens to be a free broadsheet newspaper. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-falun-gong/353524.md?page=1)