# Straight Dope on Ruby Ridge and Waco? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320 "2011-10-02T02:08:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/41 "2014-08-11T23:24:02Z")
Then you’re an attempted traitor or something. But seriously. If the government comes for the redheads, and they fight, they’re traitors? Yeah, whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/42 "2014-08-11T23:29:45Z")
In absolutely no case is it justifiable to respond to a government police action in a recognizable democracy, whether or not you believe it’s justified, by firing on government officials. Even if you’ve done absolutely nothing wrong up to that point, you are now a [traitor](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/traitors?s=t) and a murderer by any reasonable standard absent a reasonable belief that your actions are necessary to defend yourself or a third party against extreme and immediate bodily harm, taking into account the authority’s practice of not harming those who obey orders. So basically that last part covers a _de minimus_ set of circumstances that can be ignored by normal people. Such responses to police actions betray the country, the democratic process and the reasonable expectations of the citizenry. Such murderous behavior remains [murderous](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempted_murder) even if the criminal fires and misses. You have a problem with the law? Tell it to the judge, the press or your congressman, pal. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/43 "2014-08-11T23:29:57Z")
> [@Dan\_Shielding](#): > > Whether the government’s actions were justified or not is a good question. To be determined in court. You surrender to the cops, and hand the argument over to your lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/44 "2014-08-11T23:40:01Z")
When law enforcement comes a-callin with a warrant for your arrest, you are obliged to cooperate. The people at both Ruby Ridge and Waco had plenty of opportunity to cooperate, they did not and some of them were killed in the cross-fire. Compare this with the attempted police action in Philly years earlier with MOOVE where the same thing happened within minutes, not days. The other difference, the skin color of the participants. There is no special “white person exception” to arrest warrants. You are required to cooperate and violence will certainly ensue if you do not and those around you might get hurt too. The Feds would be well within their rights to gather sufficient force and arrest Cliven Bundy and his accomplices after the fact. Being white supremacist nut jobs is not a legal exemption. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/45 "2014-08-11T23:47:47Z")
Technically, \*all \*the people at Waco were killed in an _actual_ fire. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/46 "2014-08-12T00:11:11Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Unless, you know, they are from a different government than yours. Yeah. FUCK those guys! ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/47 "2014-08-12T00:28:19Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > To be determined in court. You surrender to the cops, and hand the argument over to your lawyer. What happens when they want to kill you? What if they don’t have a warrant? What if you are being abused as a spouse? Probably not frequent but the scenario can be contemplated. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/48 "2014-08-12T00:46:45Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > What happens when they want to kill you? What if they don’t have a warrant? What if you are being abused as a spouse? > > Probably not frequent but the scenario can be contemplated. I have nothing to say but, “Huh? What the fuck are you talking about?” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/49 "2014-08-12T02:07:49Z")
What happens when the cops want to kill you, he is asking. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/50 "2014-08-12T02:28:15Z")
I guess the police will kill you then … or you can kill them and fry in the 'lectric chair. I’d take the more noble route and let them kill me. I think you’d have to really try hard and diligently to get a cop mad enough to want to kill you. If a police officer witnesses you committing a crime, they don’t need a warrant. That’s kinda their job. Abused spouses are protected here where I live. Civil orders from the bench have top priority and it seems to be helping. I taught my children that a cop’s job to put a bulls-eye on his back and walk among bad people. If you don’t like the police you have, elect a different Mayor. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/51 "2014-08-12T02:28:22Z")
I agree from a legal standpoint that the people in Ruby Ridge and Waco had no justification for refusing to surrender. But that doesn’t mean the law enforcement agencies involved were right. What they were doing may have been legal but it was stupid. I’ve worked with mentally unbalanced criminals. Yes, you have to get them to do what you’re telling them to do but the best tactic is to handle things in a low key manner. Don’t ramp up the tension level when you’re dealing with somebody who’s already more than a little off balance mentally. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/52 "2014-08-12T03:12:46Z")
I saw an excellent, if blatantly one-sided documentary on Ruby Ridge. Think it won some awards but it really was excellent and quite frankly exposed how law enforcement does not want you to live in that type of community. I don’t understand why the ATF decided it had to destroy these peoples’ lives, but it was definitely someone’s agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/53 "2014-08-12T12:05:32Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I saw an excellent, if blatantly one-sided documentary on Ruby Ridge. Think it won some awards but it really was excellent and quite frankly exposed how law enforcement does not want you to live in that type of community. I don’t understand why the ATF decided it had to destroy these peoples’ lives, but it was definitely someone’s agenda. Which one? Wikipedia lists five separate documentaries on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/54 "2014-08-12T12:10:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Don’t ramp up the tension level when you’re dealing with somebody who’s already more than a little off balance mentally. As much as I hate Malcolm Gladwell, I really, really, _really_ liked [this article of his](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/03/31/sacred-and-profane-4), specifically about how the negotiations went so disastrously wrong at Waco. Highly recommended. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/55 "2014-08-12T14:26:10Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Technically, \*all \*the people at Waco were killed in an _actual_ fire. Not the ones who got shot, and possibly not the ones in the central shelter who might have choked to death as a result of being in a tightly enclosed space that was pumped full of tear gas. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/56 "2014-08-12T14:38:27Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I saw an excellent, if blatantly one-sided documentary on Ruby Ridge. Think it won some awards but it really was excellent and quite frankly exposed how law enforcement does not want you to live in that type of community. I don’t understand why the ATF decided it had to destroy these peoples’ lives, but it was definitely someone’s agenda. They didn’t live in a community, they lived in a cabin in the middle of the woods nowhere near anyone. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/57 "2014-08-12T14:42:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I agree from a legal standpoint that the people in Ruby Ridge and Waco had no justification for refusing to surrender. But that doesn’t mean the law enforcement agencies involved were right. What they were doing may have been legal but it was stupid. They weren’t asked to surrender. At Ruby Ridge, not a name that is accurate by the way but one that was dreamt up by the media, the police announced their presence by jumping out of the bushes and machine gunning a dog. At Waco they arrived and opened fire through the front door. Literally, through the closed door. The first that the people at the house at “Ruby Ridge” knew about the Feds arriving was when the mother was shot dead with her baby in her arms. They could have just knocked on the door and served a warrant. Waco had certainly been visited by the local sheriff before. Instead they indiscriminately opened fire, which isn’t a demand to surrender, it’s attempted murder. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/58 "2014-08-12T14:45:42Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I saw an excellent, if blatantly one-sided documentary on Ruby Ridge. Think it won some awards but it really was excellent and quite frankly exposed how law enforcement does not want you to live in that type of community. I don’t understand why the ATF decided it had to destroy these peoples’ lives, but it was definitely someone’s agenda. That’s not one sided. It’s inaccurate. “Ruby Ridge” happened because the ATF and FBI tried to rope Randy Weaver into becoming an informant (mostly about Aryan Nations, where he liked to spend weekends), and he tried to call their bluff. You can read all about it in Weaver’s own words in Jon Ronson’s _Them_. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/59 "2014-08-12T15:11:24Z")
If law enforcement had a secret agenda, it would not be secret at this late date. I think it fair to state that law enforcement overreacted. If we can spin the Oklahoma City bombing into this, then I also think it’s fair to say law enforcement has learned their lesson. Have we, the citizens, learned our lesson? ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/60 "2014-08-12T15:17:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In absolutely no case is it justifiable to respond to a government police action, whether or not you believe it’s justified, by firing on government officials. > > Even if you’ve done absolutely nothing wrong up to that point, you are now a traitor and a murderer and you deserve every bit of what’s coming to you. Then why are you living in a country that was founded on violence, murder, and treason? Tories such as yourself should be living in England. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320.md?page=4)