# Straight Dope on Ruby Ridge and Waco? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320 "2011-10-02T02:08:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/61 "2014-08-12T15:45:50Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I have nothing to say but, “Huh? What the fuck are you talking about?” The point is that there can be times where it is both legally and morally justifiable to resist the police, up to and including using deadly force. You’d probably die if you tried, or at least face serious consequences and in many cases I’d say it’s not a prudent thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/62 "2014-08-12T15:52:54Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > They didn’t live in a community, they lived in a cabin in the middle of the woods nowhere near anyone. So did Thoreau. Should he have been burned to death too? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/63 "2014-08-12T16:13:06Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > At Waco they arrived and opened fire through the front door. Literally, through the closed door. Wow, you totally misrepresented the context for your political ideology, didn’t you? I guess when the compound was surrounded for months, those inside thought the ATF were just playing the world’s most realistic game of Cowboy and Indians? Koresh and those loonies had a long time to surrender. They did not. Then there were reports of child abuse inside the compound, forcing the government to act. Everyone inside should have came out a month ago with their hands in their air and a phone number to their lawyer but instead they wanted to pretend they were the good guys in a movie and barricade themselves in against the cops. Koresh was fully responsible for the deaths of those people. The ATF did use inappropriate weapons but I have no problems with the tank busting through the door ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/64 "2014-08-12T16:57:21Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > If law enforcement had a secret agenda, it would not be secret at this late date. I think it fair to state that law enforcement overreacted. If we can spin the Oklahoma City bombing into this, then I also think it’s fair to say law enforcement has learned their lesson. > > Have we, the citizens, learned our lesson? Every few weeks we hear of US cops shooting or choking a black person. There are a lot of cases we don’t hear about. A few weeks ago I saw a Youtube of a black woman walking along a California freeway and a cop comes up to her and just starts beating on her furiously for a long time. I don’t know if it made the news. The police are out of control in this country, but Waco wasn’t one of those instances. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/65 "2014-08-12T17:06:22Z")
Of course it was. The Branch Davidians may have fucked up hugely but the ATF and FBI did too. The difference is that it wasn’t _local_ police, who seem to fuck up only when black people are involved. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/66 "2014-08-12T17:31:34Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Wow, you totally misrepresented the context for your political ideology, didn’t you? I guess when the compound was surrounded for months, those inside thought the ATF were just playing the world’s most realistic game of Cowboy and Indians? Koresh and those loonies had a long time to surrender. They did not. Then there were reports of child abuse inside the compound, forcing the government to act. > > Everyone inside should have came out a month ago with their hands in their air and a phone number to their lawyer but instead they wanted to pretend they were the good guys in a movie and barricade themselves in against the cops. Koresh was fully responsible for the deaths of those people. The ATF did use inappropriate weapons but I have no problems with the tank busting through the door **blindboyard** was clearly referring to the shooting that started the siege, not the raid which ended it. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/67 "2014-08-12T17:42:28Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > As much as I hate Malcolm Gladwell, I really, really, _really_ liked [this article of his](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/03/31/sacred-and-profane-4), specifically about how the negotiations went so disastrously wrong at Waco. Highly recommended. …holy crap. I had no idea that the FBI negotiators were so…incompetent. Those transcripts were cringe-worthy. I never really knew much about Waco apart from memories of old news reports. But those snippets of transcripts are telling. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/68 "2014-08-12T18:31:54Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > It’s interesting to look back on these two events, contrasting how the government handled them with how it handled Cliven Bundy (the deadbeat rancher) and the standoff with tax frauds [Ed and Elaine Brown](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_and_Elaine_Brown). > > In the former case (Bundy), the government tiptoed around the crazies to such an extent that they’re willing to let someone get away with criminal behavior. > > In the latter, the feds held back, kept an eye on them, and arrested them when a low-consequence situation presented itself. > > If Ruby Ridge and Waco hadn’t already happened, either of these new cases would IMHO have ended badly. It’s a good sign that the feds can learn from their mistakes. Even before those cases there was the [Montana Freemen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Freemen), which was handled about as gently to the point of ‘why is the FBI even here’? Pretty light touch for a crew that deserved nothing but the dankest of dank prison cells. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/69 "2014-08-12T19:00:08Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Wow, you totally misrepresented the context for your political ideology, didn’t you? I guess when the compound was surrounded for months, those inside thought the ATF were just playing the world’s most realistic game of Cowboy and Indians? Koresh and those loonies had a long time to surrender. They did not. Then there were reports of child abuse inside the compound, forcing the government to act. You…kinda missed the whole point of his post, didn’t you? Even the part you quoted where he said “At Waco they _arrived_ and opened fire through the front door. Literally, through the closed door.” “Arrived” as in “the start of the siege”, not the ending. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/70 "2014-08-12T20:39:56Z")
In both instances, the federal government had valid reasons for concern, and in both cases, they handled the situations as badly as they could have. I have no sympathy for white separatists like Randy Weaver, and little for oddball cult leaders like David Koresh. But it didn’t appear to me then (and still doesn’t) that a bloodbath was necessary. Koresh, in particular, was NOT particularly reclusive. If there was a good reason to arrest him, he could have been arrested in town with a minimum of fuss. It looked to me as if the Feds were dying to get themselves on the 6 o’clock news, or on\*\*\* Cops/Rescue 911.\*\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/71 "2014-08-12T21:22:59Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I have no sympathy for white separatists like Randy Weaver, and little for oddball cult leaders like David Koresh. But it didn’t appear to me then (and still doesn’t) that a bloodbath was necessary. Koresh, in particular, was NOT particularly reclusive. If there was a good reason to arrest him, he could have been arrested in town with a minimum of fuss. Unless he made a habit of carrying all his illegal guns and abused children with him when he went into town, they’d still have had to raid the compound to get at them anyway. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/72 "2014-08-12T23:42:28Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Every few weeks we hear of US cops shooting or choking a black person. There are a lot of cases we don’t hear about. A few weeks ago I saw a Youtube of a black woman walking along a California freeway and a cop comes up to her and just starts beating on her furiously for a long time. I don’t know if it made the news. > > The police are out of control in this country, but Waco wasn’t one of those instances. Sure, I’m not saying each and every police officer is a moral giant. But we do hear about these offenses and thankfully the press watches, and so should we. When we put humans in the positions of power, we can expect abuses. The people need to watch over these in power and make sure the complaint process works. Yes, the police want more power, they’re always first in line when it comes to advocating against guns. Taxpayers can just cut the funding, less police, less power. We were just bare bones police department here through the recession and … pfffft … civilization didn’t come crashing down just because we had to drive to the department instead of a cop coming out. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/73 "2014-08-13T08:15:27Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I have no sympathy for white separatists like Randy Weaver, He wasn’t a white separatist. He was in the hills because his wife thought the bankers and the Illuminati were trying to set up a New World Order. He just went to the white separatist compound because they were the nearest potential drinking buddies. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/74 "2014-08-14T17:06:06Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > You…kinda missed the whole point of his post, didn’t you? Even the part you quoted where he said “At Waco they _arrived_ and opened fire through the front door. Literally, through the closed door.” “Arrived” as in “the start of the siege”, not the ending. Lol, I guess I did! I thought he meant arrived as in arrived at the door near the end of the siege. My mistake then ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/75 "2014-08-14T18:06:06Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > He wasn’t a white separatist. He was in the hills because his wife thought the bankers and the Illuminati were trying to set up a New World Order. He just went to the white separatist compound because they were the nearest potential drinking buddies. That’s what he _says_. It’s not very convincing because (1) there were several towns between the Weavers’ cabin and the Aryan Nations compound, and (2) Aryan Nations prohibited alcohol on its premises. Beyond that, “bankers”, “Illuminati” and “New World Order” are all code words for Jews. Weaver was pretty open about being a white separatist. What he denied was being a white **supremacist** - he liked other races fine, just didn’t want to mix with them. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/76 "2014-08-14T18:28:25Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Lol, I guess I did! I thought he meant arrived as in arrived at the door near the end of the siege. My mistake then Wait–this is GD. You’re not _allowed_ to be reasonable and show good humor about an honest mistake. I’m almost certain there’s a rule against it somewhere. 😛 😉 ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/77 "2014-08-14T20:34:54Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Wait–this is GD. You’re not _allowed_ to be reasonable and show good humor about an honest mistake. I’m almost certain there’s a rule against it somewhere. 😛 😉 Uh, I mock your value system. You also appear foolish in the eyes of others. Past instances in which I have professed to like you were fraudulent. I have had intercourse with your spouse or significant other Good enough? 🙂 Mods: That was an old Simpsons joke ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/78 "2014-08-14T23:50:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s what he _says_. It’s not very convincing because (1) there were several towns between the Weavers’ cabin and the Aryan Nations compound, and (2) Aryan Nations prohibited alcohol on its premises. > > Beyond that, “bankers”, “Illuminati” and “New World Order” are all code words for Jews. Weaver was pretty open about being a white separatist. _ **What he denied was being a white supremacist - he liked other races fine, just didn’t want to mix with them.** _ Pretty much what I had read, too. As morally repugnant anyone might find a racist, I much prefer the ones who go away and live quietly in the woods, and mind their own business, than the ones who march about in public, with the swastika tattoos and “Heil, Hitler!” nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/80 "2014-08-23T01:48:27Z")
Why, thank you for that fine example of authentic frontier gibberish. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320/81 "2014-08-25T18:04:49Z")
> [@xtiml](#): > > there were no survivors of that fire and koresh was not raping the pubescent girls.were not their fathers also there and killed as well? I have never heard any tales of this from the ones who werent there at the time.the people were purposely burnt to death after being hereded to the area in the compound by fire from various weapons janet reno and clinton should hve been hungfor doing it.blacks say they get shot by cops but not white peopple i would like to know what they call this. and weavers set up,amongst others.if you think you can justify this government in any way then you are as crazy as they are.it has gone rogue and israel is running their shit our shit almost all thew worlds shitfukushima and their stealth virus see jimstone freelance.but the wind seems to be steenkenng recently is that der smell uf der jews barbcuing again aty aushcwitz? xtiml, I’m not even sure what the heck this was an attempt to say, but hate speech is forbidden on the SDMB. I’m giving you a warning for this. Please don’t do so again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-on-ruby-ridge-and-waco/598320.md?page=5)