# Straight from the horse's mouth... origin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 14, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-from-the-horses-mouth-origin/240035 "2004-04-14T20:39:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-from-the-horses-mouth-origin/240035/1 "2004-04-14T20:39:40Z")
I’ve heard this phrase before and have wondered about its origin. I have searched for information on the internet, but so far the journey has been fruitless. Any ideas? ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-from-the-horses-mouth-origin/240035/2 "2004-04-14T20:49:45Z")
Here is a WAG: It has to do with trying to sell a horse can claiming it is younger than it is. One way to tell a horse’s age is by looking at its teeth. However, bear in mind that this is a WAG. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-from-the-horses-mouth-origin/240035/3 "2004-04-14T21:42:09Z")
It’s a betting phrase; a tip on a horse race that is in the know, on the inside. i.e. the information is as good as direct from the source that knows best, the horse itself. ---
**Author:** ![Bromley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@Bromley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bromley)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-from-the-horses-mouth-origin/240035/4 "2004-04-14T21:48:08Z")
MY WAG is the same a **Khadaji’s** , backed up by the similar saying, “Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth.” Only cite that I can find using the idiom, “etymology” and Google was [this](http://www.binbooks.com/books/photo/i/l/18A46AC04C) book description of _What you say_ which agrees with us: > [@](#): > > It is a complete revision of a popular earlier work and focuses in particular on how words have taken on new meanings over time. Why You Say It explains that an impatient person will “jump the gun” like an athlete who beats the starter’s signal at the beginning of the race; that one who “knows the ropes” is experienced like a sailor who masters the rigging that controls a sailing ship; that one who “barges in” bursts into a situation much like a river barge that is difficult to stop or change direction; _and that one who wants the absolute truth needs to get it “straight from the horse’s mouth” like a potential buyer who learns a horse’s age from its teeth._ ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-from-the-horses-mouth-origin/240035/5 "2004-04-15T02:27:56Z")
> [@Khadaji](#): > > One way to tell a horse’s age is by looking at its teeth. Maybe, [maybe not](http://www.equisearch.com/care/anatomy/eqteeth2503/). ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-from-the-horses-mouth-origin/240035/6 "2004-04-15T03:14:46Z")
Almost certainly from horse racing. The earliest form of the phrase, so far, is 1908. _Yes–I got it straight from the feed box and it’s right._ The earliest, so far, for the actual phrase you want is P.G. Wodehouse, 1928. ---
**Author:** ![Bromley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@Bromley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bromley)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2004, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-from-the-horses-mouth-origin/240035/7 "2004-04-15T11:04:33Z")
[This](http://users.tinyonline.co.uk/gswithenbank/sayingsd.htm) guy supports the horse trading origin. Still, I haven’t seen any evidence that he’s definitely correct. > [@](#): > > If something is straight from the horse’s mouth it is from a reliable source. This again has to do with looking at teeth to establish age and therefore value; this information is likely to be more accurate than any other, such as that provided by a dishonest horse-trader. [This](http://www.womenofwonder.com/animal2.htm) one also talks of teeth, although it doesn’t specify why these experienced horsepeople are looking at them (same caveat): > [@](#): > > Straight from the horse’s mouth - Derived from the sport of horse racing, experienced horsepeople can tell a horse’s age by looking at its teeth. The source of the truth, then, is “straight from the horse’s mouth.” A potentially more reputable cite is the [Old Wives Tales](http://www.oldwivestales.net/QandAarticle1057.html) site. It backs up the teeth aspect whilst bringing in the betting one. References are to the _Why You Say It_ book that I mentioned previously and also _A Fine Kettle Of Fish_. > [@](#): > > In the [Straight from the horse’s mouth] saying, which in a way refers to betting on horses, one would try to get a look at a race horse’s teeth. From the pearly whites, the bettor would gain information about the horse. > > [snip] > > “Straight from the horse’s mouth” apparently has a shorter history. Stated to appear around 1830 but not becoming popular until 1920’s - due to the peak interest in horse races - but not appearing in print until 1928. Who shared the phrase in print? P. G. Wodehouse did in the following sentence: “The prospect of getting the true facts - straight, as it were, from the horse’s mouth - held him fascinated.” SDSTAFF **Ken** gets a mention on [this](http://pub141.ezboard.com/fxprojectforumfrm13.showMessage?topicID=428.topic) message board (for an unrelated expression). Having established that board’s credentials by association, we can probably trust the post by **Grendel** 🙂 . Apparently taken from _A Hog On Ice & Other Curious Expressions: The Origin & Development Of The Pungent & Colorful Phrases We All Use_. A new spin on why you’d want to establish the age. > [@](#): > > “Straight from the horse’s mouth…” > > Means going to the original source to get the truth of a matter. > > Comes from horse racing, and alludes to determining the age of a horse as a way of handicapping a race. A younger horse lacks racing experience, while an older horse is closer to that day when he loses a step, so knowing the age of a horse has importance to the bettor. > > Also, the buying and selling of breed and race horses suffers a certain level of chicanery, and it’s a better idea to examine a horse’s teeth to determine age, than to simply trust the seller’s claim. The first pair of permanent teeth on a horse appears at age 2 1/2, the second pair at 3 1/2, and the third pair at about 4 1/2, providing a way to factually determine the age -straight from the horse’s mouth. ---
**Author:** ![tygerbryght](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a9a28c/32.png) [@tygerbryght](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tygerbryght)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2004, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-from-the-horses-mouth-origin/240035/8 "2004-04-16T08:29:01Z")
> [@Bromley](#): > > … Or is it Grendel?? > > Also, the buying and selling of breed and race horses suffers a certain level of chicanery, and it’s a better idea to examine a horse’s teeth to determine age, than to simply trust the seller’s claim. The first pair of permanent teeth on a horse appears at age 2 1/2, the second pair at 3 1/2, and the third pair at about 4 1/2, providing a way to factually determine the age -straight from the horse’s mouth. This is correct, but only half the story. You see, the teeth of horses, like those of many other herbivores, continue to grow throughout their lives. One of the ways that dishonest horse dealers used to try to deceive buyers was by taking a file and filing the horse’s teeth down (shorter). A knowledgeable person can tell whether the horse has been “bishoped” (one of the 19th century terms for the above procedure) by checking whether the horse’s upper and lower teeth meet when they are brought together. If not, the teeth have been filed. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2004, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-from-the-horses-mouth-origin/240035/9 "2004-04-16T09:44:07Z")
If you want to know if your gift horse is long in the tooth, you can get the information straight from the horse’s mouth. Then you collapse from an overdose of cliches. ---
**Author:** ![\_Adam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/a587f6/32.png) [@\_Adam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Adam)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-from-the-horses-mouth-origin/240035/10 "2011-04-14T18:52:29Z")
> [@Snooooopy](#): > > If you want to know if your gift horse is long in the tooth, you can get the information straight from the horse’s mouth. Then you collapse from an overdose of cliches. I’m sorry I just had to bump this ancient thread because that is too funny to let die^ 😛 ---
**Author:** ![JessMagic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c0e974/32.png) [@JessMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JessMagic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-from-the-horses-mouth-origin/240035/11 "2011-04-14T22:14:21Z")
Can you tell how fast a zombie horse will run, just by examining its zombie teeth? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-from-the-horses-mouth-origin/240035/12 "2011-04-15T04:02:59Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Almost certainly from horse racing. > > The earliest form of the phrase, so far, is 1908. _Yes–I got it straight from the feed box and it’s right._ > > The earliest, so far, for the actual phrase you want is P.G. Wodehouse, 1928. **samclem** , do you remember which Wodehouse novel or short story? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-from-the-horses-mouth-origin/240035/13 "2011-04-15T08:28:05Z")
Sam is in all probability referring to this 1928 cite for the phrase in OED. > [@](#): > > 1928 Wodehouse in Strand Mag. Aug. 114/1 The prospect of getting the true facts—straight, as it were, from the horse’s mouth—held him‥fascinated. Checking this [Wodehouse bibliography](http://www.pgwodehousebooks.com/strandbiblio2640.htm) we find that Wodehouse’s story for the August 1928 edition of _Strand_ was _The Reverent Wooing of Archibald_ (the ‘Reverend’ of the bibliography is a misprint for ‘Reverent’ - see the [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Reverent_Wooing_of_Archibald) page for the story.) ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-from-the-horses-mouth-origin/240035/14 "2011-04-15T13:14:47Z")
> [@Snooooopy](#): > > If you want to know if your gift horse is long in the tooth, you can get the information straight from the horse’s mouth. Then you collapse from an overdose of cliches. See, you can take a bunch of cliches, but eventually even a tiny one too many will collapse everything, like the straw…